Talk:Qibla

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Archive One

Contents 1 Parallels Judaism 2 Move 3 Disputed 4 Offworld 5 Capitalization 6 Al-Andalus 7 Inside the Kaaba? 8 Different rhumb lines pass through the same pair of points 9 Antipodal direction?

[edit] Parallels Judaism

Would it be appropriate to add on this page that at least since Mishnaic times (200 CE), the Jewish people pray facing the temple mount in Jerusalem? The mishnah speaks about this in tractate Berachot chapter 4 mishnahs 5 and 6 and this practice is even found as early as KingsI 8:35-36.Gavhathehunchback 05:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I suggest moving the page title to Qiblah. It is the more correct transliteration from the Arabic. Cuñado - Talk 00:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

To direct themselves towards the Qibla, Muslims must face the direction of the Kaaba, and not take the shortest path or the path which is taken by airplanes or any other direction which is decided by a modern day formula or calculation... people in North America pray towards the East with a slight southern inclination

That is completely incorrect very rarely accepted as the direction of prayer. Perhaps I'll fix it later, but this article is of poor quality anyway. joturner 04:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The Qibla is along a great circle. I read in an issue of National Geographic that Muslims orient themselves in ever-enlarging concentric circles centred at the Kaaba when praying, and as those circles spread out from the Kaaba, they spread down the globe like lines of latitude, eventually converging at the Kaaba's antipode in the South Pacific, and the orthogonal lines to those circles, or "transformed meridians", are the lines that Muslims orient themselves on to face the Kaaba when praying. The same National Geographic article shows a map of the world with a "Kaaba grid" overlaid on it, and it shows that in North America, the Qibla is oriented slightly northeast.  Denelson83  01:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of North American mosques and individual Muslims - as well as the major national organizations - use the Northeastern qibla. The methods of calculating the qibla based on the great circle have been in use amongst Muslims since early Medieval times. The history as well as the fiqh of this issue were chronicled by Nuh Ha Mim Keller in Port in a Storm: A Fiqh Solution to the Qibla of North America (ISBN: 9957230042). IQAG1060 00:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the direction of Kabba both the shortest distance, the great circle route, and the likely direction of airplanes? Or is the first writer saying that to face Kabba, if you are on the other side of the earth, you must face straight down, or perhaps face toward the direction indicated by a straight line drawn on a Mercator projection? If not, then it seems to me all the authors in this conversation are already in agreement, and there is no dispute. 67.170.154.26 23:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Besides, a Mercator projection map is not a true representation of the Earth. If the Earth was flat, then Muslims in North America would definitely face east-southeast to look toward Mecca. Of course, that is not the case in reality. The Earth is an oblate spheroid, and only a globe can show the Earth as it truly is. --  Denelson83  10:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Offworld

I know that I've seen mentions in science fiction of the qibla-related difficulty that would be encountered by Muslims who travel to other planets - although since my Usenet access has been temporarily abrogated, I can't ask on rec.arts.sf.written until I get things fixed up. DS 16:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The direction is not so important for people in outer space, because 1) it is very rare, 2) the intention (niya) is what counts (for exemple if someone is lost or in the dark, the direction could be anywhere, the important is the faith, not the technical details) and 3) there are rules for people on a camel or on a boat (they direct themselves toward the head of the ship). HC 16:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Those rules should be mentioned in the article. --Error 20:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

In 1985, a Saudi Arabian astronaut travelled aboard the Space Shuttle Discovery. Does anyone know how he prayed in space? --Wechselstrom 21:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

in an interview he said that he could pray and fast but he couldn't determine the qibla or prostrate properly during his prayer, I also read that you can try to face the Earth itself when in outerspace since that would be facing the kaaba logically, of course that is not always available since the Earth could be beneath you or simply invisible Habibko (talk) 13:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

Should this be capitalized...? I don't see why it should be. Comments? Answers? gren グレン 02:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's capitalized to indicate respect, because it's a religious concept. DS 18:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization does not matter in this case, because it's not a proper name. Furthermore it is an Arabic word and the capital Q may represent that it is not actually a Q but a letter "qaf" which does not actually sound like a q. In any case, it is fine either way.

[edit] Al-Andalus

I heard somewhere that the mosques of Al Andalus had their mirhabs pointing to the south instead of southeast because Muslims arrived from the South. Is it true? --Error 20:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

At least the mihrab of the Mezquita of Córdoba points South. I read in Spanish wikipedia that there are several proposals to explain it. --Error 20:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inside the Kaaba?

I have heard that sometimes, the authorities of Mecca invited certain people to pray inside the Kaaba itself. What is the orientation of the Qibla in that case? -- 85.179.167.1 23:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

They prey out towards the walls of the Kaaba. --  Denelson83  05:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Different rhumb lines pass through the same pair of points

Given any pair of different points on the Earth's surface that aren't antipodal, there is exactly one great circle that passes through both. Such is not the case for rhumb lines; in fact, given any pair of points at different latitudes, there are infinitely many rhumb lines that pass through them both. I'm not sure the article should mention this, but I'm saying it here in case anyone is wondering. —Keenan Pepper 01:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antipodal direction?

The article seems to indicate that the orientation of shadows is the only widely accepted method of determining the direction to Mecca. If the sun is directly over the antipodal point of Mecca, the shadow goes straight down toward the ground. So which direction should Muslims face if they are at that location? Obviously, straight through the Earth is the shortest and most direct line to Mecca, but it seems inherently sacrilegious to pray directly at the ground. JCub 13:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Since there is no land in this place (it's in the middle of the Pacific ocean), this questions seems to be of little practical significance. Also, the qibla is of course calculated along the surface of the earth, not *through* the earth. -- 85.179.173.65 00:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)