Talk:Punjabi people/Archive 1

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Rename page

I think this page should be renamed Punjabi People, like it is with everyother ethnic group to distinguish between turkish people and turkish language for example.

Imran Khan

Imran Khan is not a Punjabi, he is a Pashtun. Please remove is photo from the article. No, he is punjabi, he is from the Mianwali are of punjab which is inhabited by ethnic pashtuns, like other areas are inhabited by jats, rajputs, gujjars for example. its like saying british people are biritsh, theyre angles and saxons and hence germans. thats silly.

Reply: Imran Khan is an ethnic Pashtun, he is not a Punjabi. Stop trying to steal other people and claim them as Punjabis when they are not.

he is punjabi.

Nawaz Sharif

Nawaz Sharif is of Kashmiri background, his parents themselves directly came from there. His mother tongue is Kashmiri or another language of that region, not Punjabi. Replace his picture with an ethnic language punjabi like Manmohan Singh, for recent times. Is Musharraf one? I'm just curious. I know he was born in Delhi but what province did his parents come from? User: Afghan Historian

proove it pleaseAarandir 18:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC) references needed, i think imran khan should be there. becuase is punjabi of pashtun background, just like mahmoon singh is punjabi of a race different from normal punjabis as can be seen from his different features. i mean honestly people dont like to admit someones punjabi becuase theyre of pashtun or kashmiri descent but if they have indian features than theyre definatly punjabi! i mean allama iqbal considered himself punjabi even though he was from kashmir. its like you can have an hispanic american but there no such thing as a swedish american, theyre just swedesh. as the brilliant Paul Merton said on Have i got news for you "if youre born in wales, youre welsh!" Ian Hislop replied "yea thats not true actually, you parents nationaly is another factor" to which pual replied "ok, im swedish"

"are you parents from sweden?" "no but my furniture was made there!"

Dravidian element

the comment about inferiority complex was extremly rascist. are you saying its wrong to be dravidian? you are a rascist person.

Reply: The only people with an inferiotity complex are those Punjabis who try to deny that they have Dravidian or partial Dravidian ancestry. Get over it. Punjabis have Dravidian blood, you can never escape this.

that is a very rascist comment. i shall report this to wikipedia at once if you dont stop implying having dravidian blood is inferior, as was having jewish blood to the nazis.

Reply: By constantly removing the the line about Punjabis have Dravidian ancestry it is you who is obviously got an inferiority complex and feels ashamed of his/her ancestors. Also, Punjabis do not have "Persian" or "Mongol" blood. Please take a look in the mirror. A Punjabi would never pass as a Persian or Mongol, LOL. Just be honest and accept what you are, ie, a subcontinent person.

you are sooo rascist, i never said im not a subcontinent person. thats silly! ofcourse i am, as are all punjabis, thing is were very different from the rest of the subcontinent, not that that makes us iranic or whatever. but i want proof there is dravidion blood in "most sections of the punjabi population" before i let you say something about my people.

Reply: Read any history book that covers ancient history of the subcontinent and its Punjab region. Dravidians inhabited Punjab long before Aryan migrations and Dravidian element continues among Punjabi population, most predominantly in subgroups like the Chamars, Tarkhans etc but also in virtually every other subgroup.

Punjabis are mainly an admixture of Indo-Aryans and Dravidians. I dont know why Punjabis have a problem accepting this. You're not Iranian or Turk or whatever LOL. Please, Punjabis need to get over this inferiority complex and just accept what they are.

Culturally yes Punjabis are different from other subcontinent communities. They have their own language, traditions, foods, music, literature etc But racially they are linked to rest of the subcontinent.

Im sorry but dream on if you think Punjabis are either culturally or ethnically linked to Iran or Mongolia.


i never said that. you nitwit. we are in no way iranic or turkish or mongolian. we are subcontinent but very different. all of pakistan is. as allama igbal said "pakistan is for the muslim peoples of north west of the subcontinent" and we are very different from you and the subcontinent in many more ways than "language, traditions, foods, music, literature" compare a average man from uttar predesh and a man from rawalpindi and you will see the difference. the whole mindsets are different. a man from uttar pradesh will probably be dark and dravidian while the punjabi mich lighter skinner (and yes he probably will have dravidian blood in him) but you are very persistent arent you? before you say i am. im just dont want to be told something about my people unless i see evidence and hence i will keep editing it untill i see proof and i shall inform wikipedia about this.

Reply I am not an Indian and yes culturally Punjabis are different from people of Uttar Pradesh. However, Punjabis are not that much light-skinned compared to other subcontinent people so get over your inferiority complex. Most Punjabis look more akin to any other South Asian than they do to anyone else because they are all racially linked. Live with it. By editing this page will not change the fact that you and millions more Punjabis have Dravidian blood.

well at least wikipedia has taken my side. but MOST punjabis are lighter skinned from indians. for example punjabis from mianwali, northern punjab like mirpur and jhelum, the punjabis that immigrated to the UK, look at how differernt they are from the Indians that immigrated here. punjabi's also overlap into areas of the NWFP and Kashmir. i mean ive been to both india and pakistan and i can tell you the ordinary people in india (delhi) are soooo very different from people in pakistan (islamabad, jhelum) we are part of the subcontinent but VERY different.

Reply Once again, culturally yes the Punjabis are different from Hindi-speakers and other subcontinent peoples. Punjabis from Multan are also culturally different from Punjabis from Lahore, as are Punjabis from Kangra culturally different from Punjabis in Jalandhar. Most Punjabis do not have "light skin". I dont know what you're talking about and why this is even an issue to you. Punjabis are a dark-skinned people and you should just accept this and be happy with it. Sure, Punjabis on average have a lighter complexion than a Sri Lankan but to compare to all of their neighbours to the West and North Punjabis are pretty dark.

Overstates the Pakistan element

This article overstates the Pakistani element (or understates the Indian element) in Punjabi culture. It fails to state, for example that although Punjabis are 'officially' only the people that reside in the Indian state of Punjab, the people of Haryana and HP are ethnically Punjabi too. And therefore, the number of Punjabis in Pakistan are not to dissimilar to the ethnic Punjabis in India.

Also I have issue with the phrase "The United Kingdom has the largest numbers of Punjabis who are mostly from Mirpur", because this is simply not true. There are a significant portion of Punjabis that hail from the Indian side (they may even make up the largest Indian ethnic group). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Perfectly true and valid comment. but the thing is punjabis are a tiny minority in india. and the people of haryana and Himachal Pradesh speak hindi and are not ethnically punjabi like the rest of western punjab becuase there has been much mixing between the rest of india. they may consider themselves punjabis but genetically theyre not, and if you see people from those different places, you can tell theyre different. not that im trying to discrimiate against them.
There are 1,053,411 million indians in the UK and about 700,000 pakistanis (from national statistics http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=273) of which about jsut over a 1/5th are sikh that makes about 200,000-250,000 sikhs in the UK (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=1086&Pos=2&ColRank=1&Rank=326) the pakistanis do out number the sikhs who are all punjabis. in conclusion YES there is a significant number of punjabis from india (about 20%) but they are not the largest ethnic or religeous group from india. but i will change it, becuase in my opinion it is sikh punjabis are often have the strongest punjabi culture and its worth pointing it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aarandir (talk • contribs)
Is there any 'genetic' basis for saying people from Haryana/HP are not Punjabis? They may speak Hindi (or more likely, a mix of Hindi/Punjabi) but they could still be ethnically Punjabi. Indeed, there is some history behind people in Haryana falsely stating Hindi as their mother tongue when Punjab was originally split up.
Simply stating that only 'Sikhs' form part of the Punjabi population is incorrect. There are a large number of Hindu Punjabis (from Punjab proper and from neighbouring states that were part of greater Punjab) in the UK. Also, not all Pakistanis are ethnically Punjabi (although a significant portion ARE). If you are classifying Mirpuris as Punjabis, then so are people from Haryana and HP.
It's difficult to assess the full extent of people being Punjabi because the British census does not record ethnicity to such a depth. PS: Please indent your posts using ':' and sign them using four tildes like this: ~~~~. Thanks! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
there you go. sorry im new to this. no your right. people from HP and Haryana are punjabis but the thing is. im sorry im going into the rounds of speculation but its still educated speculation: muslim punjabis are more likely to be muslim invaders who invaded punjab and settled it rather than converts. hindu punjabis are punjabis allready there. so theyre likely to not be invaders and this is also backed up by the fact that hindu punjabis are in eastern punjab. while muslim punjabis are in western punjab near the hindu kush and in the way of all invaders trying to take over the subcontinent. but we may never know ill try and find proof but untill then, yes HP and H hindu punjabis are punjabis :)... but what do u want me to do about it? where shall i mention it? anyway how do i sign this!? Aarandir 15:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)???
Well, to be honest, the only way you'd be able to verify that the muslims are 'invaders' is through genetic testing. Not that that actually matter nowadays. I'd guess that the vast majority of Punjabi Muslims are people who have converted from Hinduism/Buddhism some time ago.
I'll update the article with such points if you wish. Yes you signed correctly! The four tildes get automatically converted to your name and the current date time. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
fair enough :) Aarandir 18:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply: A small minority of Punjabi Muslims are descendants of foreign Muslims. The vast bulk are converts to Islam. Had Punjabi Muslims been foreigners to Punjab they would not be Punjabi speaking or look like an average subcontinent person. There was no "East Punjab" or "West Punjab" 58 years ago. Millions of Muslims resided in what is now Indian Punjab just as millions of Hindus and Sikhs belonged to what is now Pakistan Punjab.

Book references have been provided for Punjab's people in the article.

It is hilarious to read Punjabi Muslims trying to link themselves to "foreign invaders". Punjab being a majority Muslim region is so because of conversion.

Most Punjabi Muslims look like Zia-ul-haq and Pervaiz Elahi than Nawaz Sharif.

Funny that no other Muslim community claims to be descendants of "foreign invaders" yet Punjabi Muslims claim this despite being a population of over 80 million, more than any West or Central Asian state.

There are a number of good books on Mughal history, particularly those which are translations of the Babar-nama, Akbar-nama, and Jahangir-nama. I suggest you read these to find out about the sharp differences between subcontinent people and the small population of foreign Muslims in Mughal India (mainly Turanis and Iranis).

Frankly, a Punjabi Muslim can never pass for an Arab, Persian, Turk or Afghan. There are references in other articles (Like Iranian peoples) on genetic testing in the region highlighting the distinct differences in ancestry marked by those west of the Indus river and those east of it (ie Punjabis).

"A simple pattern underlies the mtDNA variation in this region: a west-to-east divide with a sharp boundary. Populations located west of the Indus basin, including those from Iran, Anatolia and the Caucasus, exhibit a common mtDNA lineage composition, consisting mainly of western Eurasian lineages, with a very limited contribution from South Asia and eastern Eurasia (fig. 1). Indeed, the different Iranian populations show a striking degree of homogeneity. This is revealed not only by the nonsignificant FST values and the PC plot (fig. 6) but also by the SAMOVA results, in which a significant genetic barrier separates populations west of Pakistan from those east and north of the Indus Valley (results not shown)." - http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/40813.html?erFrom=7041108066813856056Guest


Reply: I am not a supremacit so dont accuse me of being one. The truth obviously hurts you but that is your problem, not mine. Punjabis are not Iranic or West/Central Asian. There are clear genetic differences between subcontinent people (Punjabis, Tamils etc) with Iranian peoples. A sharp border is marked at the river Indus. It is just silly to dispute these facts. Please look in the mirror and purchase yourself some of those books on Mughal history and Punjabi people.

It is laughable that you suggest people living in rural areas of Punjab are descended from basically anyone that isnt from India and that they all look like Nawaz Sharif. Please, i just need to search google images for Pakistanis to see what average Punjabi or subcontinent person looks like, and you look typically subcontinent/Dravidian to me. Plus, there are loads of subcontinent people (espeically Punjabis) who i have met and they are no way Iranian, racially or culturally.

Your inferiority complex and wishing you were an Iranian or Mongolian when in reality you are a Punjabi should not cloud the truth of this article. 80 million Punjabi Muslims are not descendants of "foriegn invaders". They are native subcontinent people that embraced Islam. Why are you so ashamed to admit this?


Reply to an Iranian supremacist: 1) becuase this is not the whole truth 2) becuase punjabis are not all dravidian or suncontinent 3) i am not ashamed by this and as you can see ive cleverly avoided calling punjabis IRANIAN! becuase were not from that particular part of the world thats been in turmoil for the last 2 millenia, where please spend half thier time in cold mountains, beating them self (feeling ashmed of themselfes in fact, as Shia muslims) or abandoning all respect and dignity after death by letting vultures eat thier bodies (zoroastrians). 4) i am not suffering from an inferiority complex like adolf hilter (who though he had jewish blood in him) becuase yes ive seen my self in the mirror and i can send you picture if you like Mr. Darius. 5) i see that you find it hard to admit the people of mian wali are not punjabi? can u please layout your argument for this? in your opinion its becuase theyre pashtuns and hence cant be punjabis right? in the same way you can never have an iranian american? 6) im going to stop talking to you if the next reply is as immature, arrogant and full of rubbsih as your last one was, im guessing its going to be so. good bye.

p.s. Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq was indian. born in Jalandhar, deep inside indian territory, you can expect him to have indian phenotypes. as opposed to other prominent punjabi figues such as Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan and Muhammad Rafiq Tarar both of punjabi heritage who can certainly pass off as Zafarullah Khan Jamali the Baloch which if you check are actually persian people, or even the current mad man you have as leader at the moment Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. so much for the SHARP DIVIDE at the indus. Aarandir 08:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

c Punjabis are not all Dravidian, that is true. Then why do you keep removing the line about Dravidian population found in many sections of Punjabi population? Why are you trying to deny and hide this? I have not removed the line on Punjabis being "largely" an Indo-Aryan people, so stop removing the line about Dravidian element among Punjabis which is undeniable.

Your theory on "foreign ancestry" of Punjabi Muslims is rejected by facts and by genetic testing, references which have been provided for that note sharp differences between Iranian peoples with those of the subcontinent (ie Punjabis etc). A dividing line that is marked by the river Indus.

I dont give a crap about what you say about Persians, Shia's or Zoroastrians so dont even try it. Unlike you, i dont have an inferiority complex about my ancestors or identity.

As for Zia-ul-Haq, he is a pure Punjabi. Jalandhar is a Punjabi city. All Punjabis, like him, have Indian genes because that is what Punjabis are. Before Pakistan what was Punjab? Apart of Indian territory...

Oh, and a Pashtun cannot be a Punjabi. They are two completely different ethnic groups. Pashtun will never call themselves Punjabi and neither does Imran Khan. It is only those Punjabis who are wanabe Khan's that take this name and call themselves "Pathan".

And once again, most Punjabis look like Zia-ul-Haq, Shaukat Aziz, Pervaiz Elahi, Sultan Rahi, Manmohan Singh or any other typical looking Pakistani Punjabi, Sikh, Indian etc You cant deny this behind the internet cos all i need to do is actually meet a Punjabi or search google.

Reply:ok, you win.