Talk:Psychobilly

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[edit] Stylistic Origins

'Driven by the rhythmic pounding of a stand-up bass, the music swings with the snarl of punk rock while sometimes thrashing alongside speed metal or crashing headlong into country icon Hank Williams'

Is that being used to add 'speed metal' to the stylistic origins? It seems unsuitable since it says sometimes which means it doesn't go for much of the genre.

'The music appeals to fans of punk, indie, metal, new wave, goth, rockabilly, surf, [and] country'

This? Surely not? Appealling to fans of other genres does not make the genres stylistic origins for this one. Munci (talk) 07:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

All of those are genres which stylistically influence psychobilly from approx. the third wave onward (as the history section elaborates). I could give quite a few specific examples, amongst them Tiger Army who have songs on each of their albums that are either heavily country-influenced or just straight-up country (see the music samples), and Nekromantix, who as the style section explains had one of their albums nominated for a Grammy for "best heavy metal album". The magazine article that I used to source most of this article gives mentions of how each of the genres listed has influenced psychobilly and affected the style over the years. The quotes I chose just seemed to sum it up best and rather succinctly. Again, I could give examples such as the HorrorPops whose music shows strong influences of new wave, pop, and goth (note there is a reference for this as well: a review of their latest album in Alternative Press). I'm going to look for additional sources, since one of the article's weaknesses at this point is that it relies almost entirely on a single source, but I don't think any of these genres should be removed from the infobox. They are all styles which have influenced psychobilly throughout the genre's history. The bottom line is that there are reliable sources supplied in the article body to support the genres listed in the infobox, which is more than can be said for a majority of music articles on WP at the moment. --IllaZilla (talk) 07:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The quotes chosen are inappropriate for showing that another genre was part of the stylistic origns for psychobilly. The fact that many of the bands are x-influenced psychobilly does not make it that psychobilly is For example, Tiger Army are both country and psychobilly. This does not mean that psychobilly as a whole is influenced by country. Psychobilly may well be influenced by country, but the fact that Tiger Army have elements of both is not evidence that it is. Also, these are taken from the third wave you say. Stylistic origins is for how the genre started out so it should be the genres that were inspiration for the first wave that should be in there and it should be genres that influenced a majority of the bands not just some. Munci (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Judging from the article the stylistic origins should be punk rock, rockabilly, horror films and garage rock. Munci (talk) 08:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me give some direct quotes from the magazine article that I used as a source for most of this article:
  • "Psychobilly is both a sound and a way of life, with roots as deep as street punk, Two-Tone ska or the Oi! your friendly neighborhood skinhead is rocking." (p. 77)
  • "It's a mix of U.K. scooterboy, skinhead, punk and rockabilly aesthetics." (p. 77)
  • "...the music swings with the snarl of punk rock while sometimes thrashing alongside speed metal or crashing headlong into country icon Hank Williams." (p. 77)
  • "...while there were certainly rockabilly and garage-rock bands who influenced what would become psycho, it wasn't so much about one morphing into the other, as it was all of them happening simultaneously." (p. 77)
  • "These bands are characterized by their ambitious experimentation, as hardcore, metal, country, goth and ska all got stirred into their psychobilly brew." (p. 78)
  • "The music appeals to fans of punk, indie, metal, new wave, goth, rockabilly, surf, country." (p. 78)
  • "Largely influenced by punk rock and Oi!, as well as rockabilly's simplified instrumentation..." (p. 82)
Obviously it's pertinent to paraphrase/synthesize these various influences into the article body and the infobox. I see no reason to remove genres from the infobox that are discussed in the article body with appropriate references. The biggest problem with the "origins" field in most genre articles (and the "genre" field in most musical artist articles) is that the genres listed are not supported with any commentary or references elsewhere in the article. That being the case, why nitpick about the genres listed in this infobox which are supported by referenced commentary in the article body? --IllaZilla (talk) 06:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Being discussed in the body of the article with references is not sufficient for them to be considered stylistic origins. These sources need to say that the genres are actually influences, not just vaguely related.

  • p77:Having roots as deep as something does not mean they have the latter as origins. By this sentence, the article is comparing this subgenre of punk to other subgenres, saying they are similar in that the other 3 subgenres are also considered to have 'deep roots'.
  • p77:This is fine because it talks of the genre as a whole being influenced by these.
  • p77:This I have already talked about. The operative word here is 'sometimes'. It doesn't apply to all or even a majority of bands and therefore should not be put as stylstic origins.
  • p77:This is fine.
  • p78:This talks of bands experimenting with an established genre called psychobilly, not mixing these genres to create a new genre called psychobilly. It also uses 'their psychobilly brew' implying the mix was specific to the particular band or particular bands, rather than being added to psychobilly as a whole, in which case it would use 'the psychobilly brew'.
  • p78:Having the same fans as another genre does not mean they are influenced by that genre.
  • p82:This is fine. Munci (talk) 11:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration/Influence for Psycho....

I hate to be a nit-picky prick.... but at least half of the bands listed (and audio sampled) do not fit the genre of Psychobilly "proper".

I mean Living End? C'mon..... not even close to Psycho. It even violates the "No politics-just rock" Law of psycho.

What ever happened to the Klingonz? The Frantic Flinstones?

This wiki reads like it was written by a 19 y/o hot topic kid that found out about psychobilly last week when he jacked one of his older sister's Tiger Army albums. I hate to sound like an elitist music snob, but one must ask onesself... "what would Fenech say?"

Seary6579 (talk) 00:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I stand a little corrected... (been drinking, read more thoroughly), but still, the music samples to represent Psychobilly still kinda suck. Tere are far better examples... maybe when I sober up a bit I'll hook it up with some.

Seary6579 (talk) 00:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote the whole article from basically a stub. For the record, I'm a 27 year old who is actually writing his master's thesis on the impact of punk & alternative music. The problem with working on this article was a lack of secondary source material. I really wanted to improve it, but I only had 1 good magazine article to use a source. So I stuck to what the source said, which is one of Wikipedia's core policies. I'd love to have included some of the groups you mention, but I've never heard of them, much less found any sources from which to write encyclopedic content about them. As for the Living End, the article addresses their relationship to psychobilly. They share many of its musical characteristics and are a highly notable band with (loose) ties to the genre. For the music samples I stuck to acts/songs that were discussed in the article's prose. I feel they are good examples of some of the more notable psychobilly acts. Though you are welcome to suggest improvements, I'd ask you to be more civil and assume good faith both on my part and on the parts of others who've contributed to this article. Wikipedia is not a fan page for "true psychos" to gush about their favorite bands and rip on those they think suck. It is an encyclopedia, and we have to stick to notable subjects and reliable sources. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1st and 2nd wave?

Not to be a grump, but there was a Euro scene at the time you call 'UK 1st wave' for instance Batmobile (1983, headlined numerous festivals including te KlubFoot), so the evolution written here is wrong and incomplete.--JJHammer (talk) 06:16, 09 May 2008 (UTC)

That may be your estimation, but the article sticks to what its sources say. I'm sure there were bands elsewhere in Europe, but the main source for the article is pretty clear on London being the epicenter of early psychobilly in Europe. It's not me calling the first wave British, it's the source. I've never heard of Batmobile, and they're not mentioned in any of the sources currently used in the article. If there were a source, then it would certainly be worth mentioning in the article. But at the moment there isn't. --IllaZilla (talk) 05:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree on London being the place where it all started back then. I was only stating that there was a big scene in Europe as well before the peiod that's called 2nd wave. And Batmobile was and still is one of the main bands in the scene, I just think the article isn't complete without them.--JJHammer (talk) 08:43, 09 May 2008 (UTC)
I recommend this website: http://www.wreckingpit.com or http://www.wreckingpit.com/psycho/bands/batmobile.php3 or you can check out this myspace site: http://www.myspace.com/batmobillly (talk) 18:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Those are good links, but unfortunately not appropriate for this article. Per WP:V and WP:RS, articles must rely primarily on third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The wrecking pit appears to be a fan page/forum and therefore not suitable for inclusion in this encyclopedia, either as source or an external link. The myspace, however, would be a appropriate in an external links section of a separate article about Batmobile themselves (see WP:EL for guidelines on external links). --IllaZilla (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I have to say that you are wrong about the Wreckingpit. This is the oldest database about psychobillybands (online since 1995) on the internet. It's just a classification of all bands that exist/have existed since the early 80's. So I think it can definately be seen as an informationsource. By the way the reluctance to name Batmobile in the article for me is an exemple of not wanting to do research on the subject. I'll give you a few links from which you may see the relevance of Batmobile; The Dutch Popinstitute: http://www.popinstituut.nl/act_pagina/batmobile.5178.html The dutch Wikipedia: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batmobile_%28band%29 Batmobile at the KlubFoot (which you mention in your article): http://www.cherryred.co.uk/anagram/artists/batmobile.htm Some clips from the band, 1985 Musix Box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF2sPEOzAmE 1986 @ The KlubFooot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKtGhz2Z58&feature=related 1989: Dutch National TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59C7oHRpq8U 1991 Japan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv8ILbppvcs and more recently in Hollywood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyLPwt0xRMg&feature=related If you don't feel the need of doing a little more research, maybe you can listen to the advice of people who are into this scene for over 25 years? (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll ask you to assume good faith on my part. My reverting your previous edits is not due to a "reluctance to name Batmobile in the article", it is merely a reluctance to include unreferenced/unverified information and sidebar-type commments in an otherwise fairly well-written and decently-sourced article. Per Wikipedia's policy of verifiability, "any material lacking a reliable source may be removed", and the burden of proof is on the editor wishing to include the information. The onus is not on me go out and do background research on Batmobile just because you think they should be mentioned in the article. As I've said, the English Wikipedia does not even have an article on Batmobile. If you think there should be one, and you think they should be mentioned in this article, the onus is on you to do the research and writing. I am active in many other areas of Wikipedia as well as in real life (a full-time job and graduate school). As much as I would like to spend countless hours searching the internet for reliable information on bands I've never heard of, I am unable to do so. My answer to this is: why don't you do the research? You clearly have the ability and interest, as you've demonstrated by providing sources here. Whether you have been "into this scene for over 25 years" or are more of a newcomer to it, such as myself, is irrelevant; Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", and therefore we all have the same opportunity to contribute constructively to articles. Besides which, insinuating that because I haven't been "into" psychobilly for as long as you have, that I can't write a decent article or make judgements on content that does/doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards is highly elitist and makes other editors not want to collaborate with you. I may not be a self-professed expert on psychobilly, but I'll wager that I likely have more experience working on Wikipedia and might actually know what I'm talking about when I explain the policies and guidelines for article content. Again, please assume good faith and try to remain civil; don't reprimand me for not offering to do research that you aren't willing to do yourself. That said, thank you for the links you've provided. I will go through them and do what I can to add content to the article based on the ones that appear to be good, reliable sources. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I do assume good faith. It's just that if you have been a part of something so long and someone decides to write about it (which is a good thing), you'd like to have the facts right. And reading the comments here, I was not the only one that felt that way. And instead of only complaining, I was just trying to contribute a bit to further improve the article by offering links and the knowledge of someone who was there at the time. (talk) 08:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I can understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate your efforts to help make the article more complete. I got a little riled up by the last sentence of your previous comment, which seemed directed at me in a condescending and slightly elitist way. However I do appreciate your contributions and, like you, I want to see the article made more thorough. I'll have a look at those links and I'll also do some searching on my own to see what else I can dig up on Batmobile that might be good to include in the article. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me the phrase. Good luck with the links. I just saw someone started an article on Batmobile (band). I'll get my butt overthere and give some (constructive) input —Preceding unsigned comment added by JJHammer (talk • contribs) 14:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
It also might be interesting to say something about the KlubFoot recordings that were recently bought by Anagram/Cherry Red from Link Records and they are restoring the old material, with the first release just being a fact (Batmobile in 1986 at the KlubFoot); see link above(talk) 19:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand you want to use reliable sources. However, I consider knowing bands such as Batmobile background knowledge. A quick look at their discography should be evidence enough for their important role in European psychobilly. Alsoit should be noted that Great Britain is part of Europe as well, so the geographical devisions applied in this article are misleading for readers that lack this information. I might add that a scientific research simply can't be based on one article or one interviewee only. As there is little "proper" material written on the subject, one has to rely on primary sources such as people who actually were there when it happened. Oral history can't be limited to Nick 13 who made his first visit to Europe not until the mid nineties and can't be considered an expert on early psychobilly. (Lohmax (talk) 08:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC))

It's not merely that I want to use reliable sources, it's that reliable third-party sources are required by Wikipedia for all article information, per our policies on verifiability and original research and our guidelines on reliable sources. Considering that there is no Wikipedia article on the band Batmobile, we can't assume that readers will get "evidence enough for their important role in European psychobilly" by looking at their discography. If you want to start an article about Batmobile, by all means go ahead if you have some good references to build the article around. Those references could also be used in this article to discuss their significance to the genre. But in the absence of any references mentioning them, I'm afraid we can't include them simply because we assume readers will understand their significance. The geographical divisions thing is how the primary source for the article describes it; I should also note as a historian that there are longstanding debates about how much Great Britain really is a part of Europe, geographically, politically & culturally. That's off-topic from this article, but the bottom line is that the major source for this article describes British psychobilly as being rather distinct, and as taking place somewhat before psychobilly really took off anywhere else in Europe. You'll also notice that the article only uses 3 brief 1-sentence quotes by Nick 13, and also quotes other figures like Lux Interior and Poison Ivy of the Cramps, Johnny Bower of the Guana Batz, and Kim Nekroman of the Nekromantix, so it is not based only on 1 interviewee. The reason the article relies so heavily on the 1 source (the Alternative Press article) is because that was the only good source I could find discussing the history of the genre. If you have other reliable third-party source material to add to the article, please do. But unsourced information should stay out per Wikipedia's article content policies. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)