Talk:Pseudohistory

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 7 May 2006. The result of the discussion was keep, nomination withdrawn.

Contents

[edit] Reorganization

I don't think this article is entirely flawed, but it needs serious cleanup. For one, the name "pseudohistory" suggests that all the works mentioned are to be regarded as fiction, when in truth their factuality is merely disputed and its evidence challenged. In particular, I can appreciate the skeptical criticisms of religious texts, but this is usually inherent to religious literature. No specific religious text or canonical component should be singled out for inclusion here. For instance, while the Book of Mormon is regarded with skepticism by many mainstream Christians and non-Latter-day Saints, the Apocrypha is accepted even by many Christians, but less so by non-Christians. Judaism and many non-Christians dispute the New Testament, while Islam disputes the complete accuracy of the Bible altogether. If religious texts are to be included in this categorization, then I suggest a renaming to "disputed purported history". Though at the same time, that seems too generous for things like holocaust denial and such, as I cannot and will not deny for a moment that the Holocaust did not happen, because it did. - Gilgamesh 15:50, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How can you call for "clean up", when the article barely exists at all. What it needs is development, not clean up. However, you are mostly correct in regards to religious texts. They should be mentioned (in passing, without singling anything out), of course, but they are in a different category. Pseudohistory is a type of pseudoscience and religion is not a type of pseudoscience. When religious people/clerics make a historical claim, they usually justify it with "It happened because I believe it did" or "It just happened", they don't pretend to be scientific. Pseudohistorians, on the other hand, pretend to be using science and pretend to stand on the same ground as real scientists.
It would be silly to argue with a Christian, who believes that god created Earth. The religious guy is (to say bluntly) delusional, he would not accept any evidence, because it contradicts his belief (Thomas Aquinas put it best with his "I believe, because it's absurd"). So generally scientists do not object to religious myths, because they are just that - imaginary tales that some people chose to believe. There is nothing to argue about, because religious people don't pretend their stories are worth publishing in historical journals and don't pretend to have any evidence or anything like it. Paranoid 18:23, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well, I actually am a religious person, but I'm also a scientific person, and I also always try to be a fair person and promote equality between all the religions as well as skeptics. If religion were regarded as a sort of history, I suppose I wouldn't mind it being mentioned here, but it has to cover everything in equal light — it can't elevate certain sources above others (such as where the Book of Mormon and the Apocrypha were mentioned here, but the Torah, the Qur’an, Hindu mythology, etc. were not). And even then, the article shouldn't endorse opinions about the work that broadly praise or condemn them, because that's a choice people make for themselves, and they have every right to make their own choice and stick to it no matter what. Wikipedia can afford no such passions, as it will ultimately undermine neutral credibility. Frankly, saying that the Apocrypha is pseudohistory while saying the Bible is not, is not only an opinion, but also a more narrowly sectarian Christian opinion that disagrees with other Christian canons that do subscribe to the Apocrypha (such as the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologies). Either we say that both are pseudohistory (if indeed they are to be considered histories), or that neither of them are, as they are religious texts that don't pretend to rely on modern skeptical science anyway, as you have said. - Gilgamesh 03:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

I could find no definition of pseudohistory anywhere except from Wikipedia, its liscensed content "mirrors" and un-authoritative sources. Pseudo means "False or counterfeit; fake." Historical articles which are under dispute are not pseudohistories, however things such as Atlantis could be called pseudohistories. I am adding the POV tag.--AI 21:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of examples

Why is this list different from what is listed in Category:pseudohistory? Because of disputes, only established pseudohistories should be listed. If readers want a full list, they can go to the category which changes according to ongoing disputes.--AI 22:17, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • "Established pseudohistories"? Isn't that an oxymoron? Donovan Ravenhull 22:41, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No.
Some subject have been determined to be pseudohistory.
Look at Priory of Sion.--AI 23:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, poor attempt at humor on my part. Donovan Ravenhull 02:11, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're making fun of my missing "as". :) --AI 02:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
None of the supposed examples of pseudo-history that are listed in the article have any sources to substantiate the claim. They all appear to be Original Research, even the first example, which should have been an easy one to have sourced. I dispute strongly that David Barton should be on the list, and, as his inclusion as a pseudo-historian is not sourced, I'm removing it. Pooua (talk) 02:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removing

I would propose to remove the article altogether.

The concept of pseudosience resembles the concept of heresy and mostly serves "political" not scientific purposes. There are already good names for the described concept (such as "theory" or "hypothesis") and we do not need another politically engaged one. Give scientists a chance! Either you (or anyone else) prove your theory and then you have perfectly good science or you (or anyone else) disprove your theory and you have theory which cannot be applied to the world we know. It often happens that even "bad" theory works pretty well in the range of their approximation (say, Newton theory and planets) and some "bad" theory ("pseudoscience") can inspire new discoveries (say, Schampillion and Troy). And from time to time (very rarely) we have guys like Einstein who fell completely out of the "mainstream" science and produced a better one.

First, this is the pseudohistory article, not the pseudoscience article. Secondly, this article is all about theory that cannot be applied to the world we know, but whose authors sell a million books telling everyone we evolved from lemurs on Atlantis who were placed there by aliens from Sirus.--Prosfilaes 01:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
If you accept that history is science, then, there is no difference between the general concept of pseudohistory and pseudoscience. And, please, do not worry that some chaps are selling million books based on nonsense - there is a lot of nonsense sold by millions - and always will be. But the point is that if you can prove that we did not "evolve from lemurs on Atlantis who were placed there by aliens from Sirus" - then these books are nonsense or in mild words are wrong theories. If you cannot do that - this hypothesis is as good as anything else. Especially if it can generate predictions and the predictions can be checked and are right, etc. There exists a normal scientific process for doing science (considering history as a branch of science) and you do not need the term "pseudo" to make people unhappy or to put labels.
I don't accept that history is science. I worry about all the people being mislead, and I think it illadvised to laugh at their miseducation. Yes, I need the term pseudohistory, to seperate the stuff out that's not history, that's not even trying, from the stuff that's just wrong. Nonsense would be more ambiguious, and if anything more contraversal.--Prosfilaes 14:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok, it is your choice. However, many people think that history is science (including me). As for your worries, please, give people a chance. In general, people (and scientists) are not as dumb as they might appear to be and they can make their own judgements in their own time and either arrive at the conclusion that some stuff is nonsense (or wrong, or have a limited range of applications), or embrace some theory after carefull consideration. Therefore, nonsense will be named "nonsense" in due time.

Thus, the term "pseudohistory" is redundant (if you can prove that something is nonsense - name it nonsense, if not - call it a hypothesis) and, sadly, often used wrongfully with the simple idea to insult someone. That is why I vote for removing.

Making history a science is stretching the meaning of the word science quite a bit, and it's not a common expansion. The word pseudohistory is not redundant; a collection of random words is nonsense, but not pseudohistory. You need to be more precise with your words.--Prosfilaes 17:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
How do you justify denying that history is a science? My university classified it as a social science as does every other university I've seen. Medical pseudoscience is known as quackery. Why should historical pseudoscience not have its own term? Google lists nearly 30,000 results for pseudohistory. Durova 20:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
There's a saying that anything that has science in the name ain't. More realistically, librarians don't classify history books in the science section, classes labelled "science" or "general science" don't include history, historians don't identify themselves as scientists, and they don't subscribe to what is called the scientific method. After reading science, it's clear to me that it's not a simple edge, but the article discusses it (thought it never draws a line where I would); social sciences comes out and says "For example, communication, cultural studies and history may be classified as humanities depending on how they are taught, and in which country they are taught."--Prosfilaes 19:30, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Totally POV

If you look at a german history book and an american history book and a japanese history book you will find three different histories. None are wrong they are points of view and since thats all history is anyway it's basically redundant. Furthermore one can argue that all history is psudohistory in that it doesnt have anything to do with what actually happened, its what the people who were alive after the fact decided to say about it. This article is crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.4.157.198 (talk) 10:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to Boldly Edit

What this stub really lacks is a discussion of methodology. Few members of the general public understand how legitimate historical research is done. This article should link to related articles that explain those standards. This article should also outline the ways that fringe theories violate those standards.

I suggest removing the section on religious pseudohistory. It invites contentious faith-based quarrels that are impossible to resolve. To single out religion might imply a bias against religion to some readers. Pseudohistory in any context follows similar patterns of illogic. Durova 20:45, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

But a large amount of pseudohistory is done in the name of religion. If not a section, that deserves a note of some sort.--Prosfilaes 19:36, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there anything quantitatively different about the methods of religious pseudohistory? I'm thinking of ways to cover this while maintaining NPOV. Once something acquires the status of religion it steps outside normal standards of historiography, but only from the perspective of adherents to that particular faith. Nearly all forms of pseudohistory are matters of faith by some definition. Yet it would be tasteless to express that idea in a way that fails to acknowledge the differences between a Christian believer in the Apocrypha and a neo-Nazi Holocaust denier. Durova 17:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Found the following on Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View: "Many adherents of a religion will object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They would prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which is often from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.) Their point of view must be mentioned, yet note that there is no contradiction. NPOV policy means that we say something like this: Many adherents of this faith believe X, which they believe that members of this group have always believed; however, due to the acceptance of some findings (say which) by modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z."

[edit] University pseudo-history

I'm surprised that this article zoomed right past the obvious examples of 'pseudo-history' taught in universities.

1/ The Matriarchy: thousands of years ago Europe was a matriarchy paradise before the rise of male-based monotheism. The Matriarchy was a class-less society ruled by the Matriarchal caste with a polytheistic worship of the One True Goddess.

I got taught this wish fulfillment in my gender studies course as if there was evidence from either archeology or sociology.

2/ The Wellhausen Theory of Higher Criticism of the Old Testament.

Since the Aryan inventors of literacy hadn't introduced writing or legal systems to the mongrel races of the Middle East until the 3rd century BCE the Jewish writings could not have been written before that point. Analysis of grammar and word use in the Old Testament indicate the existence of several documents, notably the E and J texts, that were cut and pasted together by an editor.

With the translations of the Rosetta Stone, Assyrian and Babylonian texts the concepts that legal codes and poems could not have existed before Alexander the Great has been proven false. The similarities between passages in the Old Testament, the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Code of Hammurabi-as well as other literary and legal codes of the Middle East indicate an origin of the Old Testament from approximately 1,000 BCE. Absolutely zero indication of the individual existence of either the E text or the J text has ever been found. The technique of 'Higher Literary Criticism' has been tested on a number of other source materials. It has offered as useful an understanding of Biblical texts as the Bible code (which was tested against Moby Dick.)

There are a number of other historical theories which have been proven false but these are the two that I am aware that are still being taught at the university level as being accurate after being utterly proven wrong.

To do that, we'd have to mention it in an NPOV way; it's clear that there's a strong opinion on behalf of both of those ideas. It'd help to cite people who have called those ideas out as pseudohistory, preferably using that term. On the second one, I'd appreciate a source that wasn't a Christian apologist.
Just as importantly, if you were interesting in writing on the second topic, our articles on Higher Criticism are pretty bad and lack any sort of criticism of the ideas included.--Prosfilaes 08:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm aware that I have strong feelings on these two subjects. As well I'm not well read enough in these areas of controversy to be able to quote sources known to be reputable. That's a good recipe to produce bad and crankish writing.
I'll do some research, on the web and at libraries based here in Toronto to see whether they back up my claims. It is possible that the arguement concerning the Graf-Wellhausen theory will only be discussed by religious authorities. It is after all religious history.
David Cheater 23:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The Graf-Wellhausen theory, while no longer accepted in its entirety, is still the basis for the dominant theories on the Bible, although of course there have been significant changes since then. It nevertheless remains the case that most Biblical scholars still accept the existence of the various source traditions outlined by Wellhausen. The description of it given above is a completely unfair caricature, meant to discredit the theory by associating it with the Nazis, and implying all kinds of things the theory did not claim - for instance, the documentary hypothesis most certainly did not claim that the Bible wasn't written before the time of Alexander the Great, the Egyptian hieroglyphs had Assyrian cuneiform had already been translated long before Wellhausen devised his thesis, and the Code of Hammurabi would also appear to have been discovered well before Wellhausen wrote. If you want to attack the documentary hypothesis, have at it, but it has to be done in a way which is fair and scholarly, and not just a hackish, misleading attack that obscures more than it reveals. john k 00:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I have read Wellhausen's Prolegamena in english translation and sections of Die Kompostion des Hexateuchs und die historichen Buecher des Alten Testaments in the original. My portrayal of what they actually do say is not misleading. Certain presumptions about race, class and cultural worth were not questioned in the scholarly writing of 19th century Europe. Most of Wellhausen's presumptions have been proven wrong since then. He did have the presumption that there were no middle eastern texts before the 6th century BCE, the Hammurabi Code dates from the 15th century BCE. He did assume an 'evolution of religious sensibility in tandem with cultural evolution' from animism, through shamanism, through polytheism, through henotheism to monotheism. Anthropology and sociology have shown this to be false. There are both hunter/nomad cultures that believe in a 'Chief God' and many modern urbanites who practice animism.
One of the problems with discussing the social history of when and how the text(s) were written is the division of all of the examiners into two Orthodox camps. The first camp asserts that if you believe in miracles than the text was written by Moses-even the bits after he died. The other camp maintains that if you reject superstition that you must accept the unique procedure of dividing the first five books of the Old Testament into a densely interwoven collection of documents written by hypothesized political groupings pushing agendas 500-700 years after the time given.
It is more useful to compare the Hebrew texts to other middle-eastern texts. It is more useful to take what we have learned from archeology and anthropology and apply it. And since the technique of creating documents from within a text based on name use has been shown to be less than accurate on texts we can verify it not be used as conclusive proof of the existence of documents. Of course it is possible that someday someone will discover a papyrus or a cuneiform tablet containing a JPED document but until then the technique of using the simpler explanation should prevail.
I understand that the history of the Bible is most likely written by religious authors. I, however, first read criticism from Josh McDowell, who I believe is of the first camp; I'd appreciate reading criticism from an author who I believe could be convinced of the accuracy of the theory given the right evidence.--Prosfilaes 00:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Your most recent description of Wellhausen is considerably less out there than the initial one. At any rate, the basic problem is that you are essentially saying that because Wellhausen was wrong about many things that most of his contemporaries were wrong about, and which no modern scholars believe anymore, he must also be wrong about everything else, even the aspect of his work which has, with considerable adaptations, been adopted as a principal basis of modern scholarship on the Pentateuch. This is absurd, and would require us to pretty much renounce all scientific and historical theories, since most of them date back to the 19th century, and to people who probably believed similar nonsense to the nonsense that Wellhausen believed. Wellhausen's supposed claim (I will take your word for it that he does make this claim) that there were no Near Eastern texts before the 6th century BC was dubious when he made it in 1886, and was, within the next few years afterwards, completely debunked. Nevertheless, his theory on the origins of the Old Testament has, with considerable modifications, survived. I would also note that, while there are numerous near Eastern texts from before the 6th century BC, it is true that modern scholars do not think that the Levant actually used writing very much before the late divided kingdoms period, making many modern scholars consider the J and E parts of the Old Testament, believed by Wellhausen, iirc, or at least by the classic purveyors of the documentary hypothesis, to have been written around the 10th or 9th century BC, to actually be later. At any rate, the basic fact remains that, whatever the scholarly validity of Wellhausen, most modern scholars do see the first four books of the Bible as containing early material (J and E) which was edited together and supplemented by a later writer highly concerned with ritual practice (P), and that the fifth book is a separate source entirely, which also played a hand in editing together the historical books of the Old Testament (D). It would be deeply irresponsible to discuss the documentary hypothesis in the context of pseudohistory. john k 01:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Granted, I rechecked the main article and pseudohistory is given two separate definitions.
Pseudohistory exists outside that mainstream. It can take many forms but usually follows familiar patterns. Rarely does it go the route of peer reviewed publication. A person who engages in pseudohistory typically makes a direct appeal to the public. Citations will be absent, inadequate, or unreliable. Pseudohistory does not do justice to mainstream interpretations
Pseudohistory involves the inappropriate treatment of source material. It typically reflects the effort to justify a foregone conclusion. Pseudohistory often inflates the importance of a few unreliable sources while ignoring mountains of contradictory evidence. Pseudohistory may pull irrelevant facts out of context. Pseudohistory may distort the meaning of legitimate source material. Pseudohistory sometimes manufactures fraudulent evidence.
I was working with the second definition. The history of science and the history of social studies are filled with unquestioned axioms that are defended long after massive amounts of evidence disproves them. (Dr. Steven. J. Gould has many excellent essays on examples of such.) It does not matter that the majority of geologists at one point believed that the earth could not be older than six thousand years. Massive amounts of evidence from across a wide variety of disciplines have proven that theory wrong. The assertion given in the Documentary Hypothesis that the priests of Shiloh and the Aaronid priests wrote the Pentateuch in the post-Exilic history has been completely discredited. (For one thing-if the Pentateuch was only written after the Exile why do the Samaritans have a version? They separated from mainstream Judaism at the beginning of the Exile.)
Unless there is some evidence of the J or E documents existing before Jean Astruc they should be labelled as 'theorhetical constructs'. There are real documents that actually exist which can provide insight to the writing of early Jewish documents.

[edit] Should 9/11 conspiracy theories be added to the "events" section?

Or is that too recent? Kirbytime 21:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Too recent to be pseudo-history... "pseudo-Current Events" perhaps? 38.112.47.92 17:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This whole article is rubbish isn't it?

Two main complaints - first, pseudohistory, if it's a word at all, is just that: a word, fit for inclusion in a dictionary, and not an abstract methodology or ideology suitable for an encyclopaedia. No writer or academic would describe themselves as a pseudohiustorian, so it isn't like its a movement or anything. It's just a pejorative label to write off someone else's work (rightly or wrongly). Secondly, it is completely pejorative, and this should be made very clear. I vote that this be deleted from the encyclopaedia. ElectricRay 22:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. Though I agree that the was the term pseudohistory is used is generally pejorative, I don't think the existance of it is. I could see an argument being made to move this to wiktionary but not to delete it entirely. Even then, the current article has enough content that its no longer just a definition. I'd rather see it cleaned up and extended a bit more than moved. KalevTait 00:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK; your wish has been my command. done. ElectricRay 00:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reference for perjorative as part of the definition of pseudohistory? Perojative is not part of the definition of pseudoscience or the pseudohistory definition given in that entry, i.e. "term for information about the past, which purports to be historic or supported by archeology, but which is judged to fall outside the domain of mainstream history." It is also not included in the pseudohistory definition at Skepticwiki.

Are there examples or references for the second statement? I am not aware that "controversial conclusions from new, speculative or disputed historical evidence, particularly in the fields of national, political, military and religious affairs, are often rejected as pseudohistory by commentators holding contrasting views." A google news search of pseudohistory turned up only two articles, that hardly seems to support "often".

Google definitions references this article but gives an earlier version as follows: "Pseudohistory is the historical equivalent of pseudoscience. Pseudohistory typically blends together real history with myths and legends, without any attempt at criticism or fact checking. Pseudohistory sometimes serves a political, nationalist or religious agenda." Unless there are objections, I will delete perojative and soften the second statement. Plantguy 18:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


Yes, this article is rubbish. A high pile of garbage erected as a pseudoattempt to divert inquiries into sensitive subjects. Any examples of pseudohistory that turned into "real" history would be fun to see. ( Didn't Zinn write a book about all the BS he was taught in school that turned out to be lies. Maybe it wasn't Zinn - cite this please. ) Denial of various sorts might be called pseudohistory - or whoever can get to the microphone first is anyother example. Rubbish - wiki is pseudoinformation ( new article maybe needed ).

Yes, the article is rubbish. It is being used right now to denigrate David Barton, for no more reason than the person who wrote the article does not agree with David Barton's historical research. And, the same sort of pseudo-literate reasoning has led to this article being used as justification for deleting a reference on another article to Wallbuilders, which David Barton founded. Pooua (talk) 02:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus myth

Is the inclusion of Jesus-Myth as pseudo history suggesting that the theory that Jesus did not exist is pseudo history, or that the theory he did exist is pseudo history? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.2.47.20 (talk • contribs) .

The theory that he did not exist. john k 23:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's the theory that he did not exist. Michael Grant, the source I linked to, summarizes the consensus of historians -

This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth.... But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms.... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary (Jesus: An Historian's Revew of the Gospels [Scribner, 1977, 1995]).

Another New Testament critic, Graham Stanton echoes this summary:

Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which as to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher. (The Gospels and Jesus [Oxford University Press, 2002]).

--LightGrenade04 (talk) 22:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


Is this because of consensus or proof?


Add a section on whether history has to stay within scientific bounds to not be called pseudohistory. Do historians have to pass the giggle test?

The trouble is that discussion of the Historical Jesus (including issues such as the nativity census and the existence of Nazareth in Jesus' day), is rife with minority, and even extreme-minority opinions. I think a distinction needs to be made between legitimate hypotheses that are rejected by the majority (and even the overwhelming majority), and illegitimate claims. Before the Jesus Myth hypothesis, or anything similar, is included I would want to see evidence that it not only is not accepted, but is widely considered to be in some way methodologically deficient and/or tendentious. HrafnTalkStalk 03:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I've already referred to a couple first-rate historians on the matter; both of whom report that the Jesus Myth (JM) to be literally an all but dead hypothesis. The only medium where it has garnered any sort of support is at the popular level, where it is supported by largely by amateurs with little to no formal education in history (at least nothing beyond the undergraduate level - see, for example, George Albert Wells, Acharya S, Frank Zindler, Timothy Freke, and Peter Gandy). Earl Doherty is the only exception I know of, but apart from him, no other historian considers the JM to have any value (which makes it seem wrong to simply call it a "minority position"). The reason for its nearly wholesale abandonment in the scholarly community is that it is simply indefensible, and its methodology is unsound for several reasons. Proponents of the JM routinely misinterpret the writings of St. Paul and the relative silence of his epistles regarding biographical information on Jesus to mean that Paul himself did not believe in a historical Jesus! These sorts of arguments from silence represent the foundation of many proponents of JM's case. They also argue for radically late dates for the Canonical Gospels, read far too much into their literary development (arguing that development implies complete fabrication), and over-state the significance of discrepancies between gospels (somehow thinking that such difficulties entail non-historicity). Their analyses of the available non-Christian literature corroborating Jesus' historicity are largely dismissive, and borderline flippant. This is particularly apparent in the case of Josephus and the now infamous Testimonium Flavianum - while it is true that nearly all scholars recognize the presence of interpolations within that text, it is still regarded as authentic by the majority once the interpolations are removed. The JM also has failed to provide any explanation for why the considerable opposition to early Christianity did not make use of this truth in their polemics against Christianity, nor why there was never any internal controversy between Christians who did not believe in a historical Jesus, and those who did (I think this is significant considering the level of internal conflict on so many other issues within the Church). Furthermore, no JM proponent has ever produced any reasonable alternative account of the origins of Christianity, and how the fledgling religion somehow catapulted to popularity when its central claims were bereft of any historical truth. My last point is something of an ad hominem, but it is still true - JM proponents are not writing history with their publications, but polemics. For what it's worth, their scholarship is a highly agendized tool intended for the purposes of undermining Christianity. This can be gleaned from the acceptance of long-outdated scholarship, such as the theories of the anthropologist Sir James Frazer who theorized that primitive peoples connected agricultural cycles to "corn spirits" which they then developed into a primitive theology of these corn spirits dying annually and then being reborn in the form of a divine king. Supposedly, then, from this concept emerged primitive religious belief systems such as those associated with figures like Attis, Adonis, Osirus, Horus, Mithras and others. Christianity, then, is just another form of this dying-rising god archetype. Needless to say, this view has been widely discredited for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the whole concept of the dying-rising savior god is a farce, and none of the figures given as examples actually fit the category. Furthermore, to make the connection between figures like Adonis et. al. requires such an idiosyncratic interpretation of both the pagan myths and the Christian story to be disingenuous. Such interpretations also widen the category of what ought to be considered a "mythical figure" to such a latitude that it would include patently non-mythical figures such as Napoléon Bonaparte or Hannibal to fit the bill (indeed, the JM has been satirized to no end on the internet for precisely this reason; see here for example). So, those are my reasons for advocating the JM be considered pseudohistory.--LightGrenade04 (talk) 17:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


I have a number of problems with the claims you make here:

  1. The main "first-rate historian" you quote equivocates from "no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus'" to "or at any rate very few". This implies that at least some "serous scholars" may postulate it. The other is likewise careful to frame his words in terms of "nearly all historians".
  2. My impression is that 'arguments from silence' are not condemned per se by scholars -- Feldman mentions favourably arguments from silence from Norden on the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum (Josephus, the Bible and History, p431), as one example immediately to hand.
  3. Your analogy to Bonaparte is completely fallacious, as we have independent contemporaneous accounts of him, many of which would still be extant in the original.
  4. Condemning JM as 'polemics' while citing the bede.org article strikes me as WP:POT.

I would conclude by asking whether a hypothesis, which has a reasonably respectable early history, but is now largely been discarded as unsubstantiatable (but by its nature cannot be disproven outright), can be labelled as "pseudohistorical"? At the very least, lacking a less equivocal condemnation, the label appears to be WP:SYNTH. HrafnTalkStalk 05:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your points:
  1. I think this is really grasping at straws. Obviously what is meant is that in the contemporary academic community of historians, the JM simply isn't a serious hypothesis (indeed, few historians have even taken the time to interact with it at all). That is the point, and to make an issue out of there being a few historians here and there who've defended it is just parochial (and honestly, I do not believe there are any modern examples of a historian holding to JM aside from Doherty - although I'm open to correction here). So, it's not something that's just a "minority opinion". I don't think it has garnered enough support to even fit that category.
  2. I will concede your point here with the caveat that as I understand, an argument from silence is (while it may be acceptable under some circumstances) is less than desirable, and really only justified when one ought to expect evidence that one does not, in fact, find. I think the old adage, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is the general rule until it has been established that one ought to find evidence where one has not found it, and the field has been sufficiently surveyed for it. So, in this instance - and when dealing with ancient history especially - arguments from silence are not justified since there's no reason to expect any regurgitations of biographical information about Jesus in the Pauline epistles. Paul simply didn't have an occasion or need to mention such things in elaborate detail as he was dealing with specific controversies/problems that had arisen in the particular communities he was writing to; furthermore, Paul does reference biographical information intermittently, so the so-called "silence of Paul" is largely overblown.
  3. I think you've misunderstood the point about Bonaparte - I was not trying to argue that "denying the historicity of Jesus is like denying the historicity of Napoleon" or anything along those lines. What I was saying is this: JM proponents, in their analysis of various mythological paradigms, widen the definition of who fits the category of "mythological" to such a degree, that by their methods one could place figures like Bonaparte or Hannibal in that same mythological category. That's all I was trying to say.
  4. Well, all I'm just trying to do is give an overview of how people have responded to the JM hypothesis. Indeed, the article I linked to contains a bit of satire, but the author of that site is actually a professional historian, and has criticized JM in more sober tones elsewhere on the site.--LightGrenade04 (talk) 00:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
  1. I find it interesting that a web-search for your Grant quote leads directly to Christopher Price's list on bede.org.uk -- as the sole online source of this quote. This is also the sole online source for your Stanton quote.
  2. More interesting yet is that a search of "Christopher Price" & "jesus myth" leads rather quickly to a claim by Doherty that in the passage Grant was explicitly quoting earlier opinions rather than making his own independent judgement -- quotation marks that Price appears to have omitted. Do you have Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels to hand so that you can confirm or refute this allegation? Unrefuted, it further waters down this already equivocal condemnation.
  3. Further investigation reveals that Price is a lawyer & only an amateur historian[1] and that far from being an experienced historian James Hannam has only "recently submitted his PhD".[2], and that both are fairly militant Christians.
  4. This leads to the possibility that the opinions cited may have been cherry-picked from the more conservative, evangelical ranks of Biblical Studies, and may not reflect the overall consensus, which might well be of some middle ground between said conservatives and the 'Jesus Myth' radicals.
  5. Your defence of your Bonaparte analogy is erroneous, as 'Jesus Myth'-style 'arguments from silence' would quite simply fail to dismiss somebody as frequently, independently and contemporaneously mentioned as Bonaparte.

HrafnTalkStalk 15:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historical fiction

What this article really needs is something that distinguishes pseudohistory from historical fiction (i.e. The DaVinci Code is a questionable example).--Wikiphilia 05:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Fiction itself isn't pseudohistory, but it can be based upon it, which the Da Vinci Code certainly is. DreamGuy 06:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prehistoric advanced civilizations

Would this belong in the pseudohistory section? I read a book a long time ago which claimed that Mohenjo-Daro in India was the site of a prehistoric atomic bombing (this is also supposedly described in The Mahabharata). Presumably, there was an advanced civilization in the past which wiped itself out with nuclear weapons and mankind started over again. I'm not really sure where this would go. Squad51 (talk) 18:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Faulty logic

I have removed the following paragraph from the article:

Calling something "pseudohistory" assumes that there is a correct historiographical method, and ultimately a single objectively true account of a given set of facts. This analysis is not consistent with certain metaphysical theories, particularly relativist views of historical affairs, which would reject the notion of any truth outside language. (See, for example, Richard Rorty's Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity).

This is just wrong. It is claiming that "some things are not true" must imply "only one thing is true", which simply does not follow. 78.105.167.145 (talk) 21:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Straw man. The para is reasonable as is.Verklempt (talk) 22:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't remove it altogether, just mention that the distinction is criticized by postmodernist historiographies who eschew all notions of objectivity. I agree that postmodernism is nonsense (indeed all history is "somebody's story" or an interpretation of an event, but what they don't seem to realize is some interpretations are vastly more probable than others aside from relativism's self-referential incoherence) but since this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, it should just be mentioned.--LightGrenade04 (talk) 23:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protocols of the Elders of Zion & Pseudohistory

Forgeries (e.g. the Hitler Diaries) are not, of themselves, 'pseudohistory'. However any historical claims made on the basis of clear forgeries would be. Last I heard, Neo-nazi (& similar) groups were still making claims on the basis of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. All it would require would be a prominent source for such claims. HrafnTalkStalk 02:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)