Talk:Proa

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[edit] Redirects

This page receives redirects from the pages 'prahu' and 'perahu'. This is wrong, I believe. 'perahu' is the Bahasa spelling of the Malay word for boat or ship (source: Macmillan's Malay-English dictionary). 'prahu' is an older spelling of that word. Neither has any implications of proa-ness, both are applied to many types of boats, including power-driven monohulls for example.

Dave Howorth 2007-10-21 82.153.139.119 15:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

This is true; however, I'm not sure there is a more appropriate article, other than just "boat", to redirect to, and the article does mention "perahu" as a source of the term "proa". From http://dictionary.reference.com:

proa –noun

any of various types of Indonesian boats, esp. a swift Malay sailing boat built with the lee side flat and balanced by a single outrigger.

Also, prao, prau, prahu.

[Origin: 1575–85; < Malay pərahu, pərau (sp. perahu) (< Kannada paḍahu, or a cognate Dravidian word); prob. influenced by Sp or Pg proa prow1, bow]

So a proa is a perahu, but not all perahus are proas. Do you happen to have a list of typically Malay boat types? If so, then perahu could be changed to a disambiguation page, defining it as Malay for "boat", and then pointing to the proa article and others covering Malay types of boats. scot 13:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know much at all about typical Malay boat types, either present-day or historical. I see the situation as follows:

perahu means boat, so that is indeed the appropriate article to which to redirect. However, that offers no useful content, so I would suggest simply deleting the entries for prahu and perahu. Alternatively, add redirection pages for as many languages as possible. For example, why is 'boot' not a disambiguation page? I was going to use an example in a more familiar language to make my point, but my first choice - bateau - simply illustrates the American-centred viewpoint of Wikipedia :(

OTOH, I believe it is perfectly reasonable for the proa page to mention prahu with regards to etymology.

Cheers, Dave —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.209.187 (talk) 20:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I assume that "Proa" also originally meant boat or ship in general, but was associated in English with a particular kind of vessel frequently encountered under that name. --Stephan Schulz 20:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

That is correct--usage of the term in English, as well as by speakers of other languages that I've seen, most commonly refers to a specific type of sailing vessel where "windward" and "leeward" are fixed, rather than "bow" and "stern" of other vessels. I imagine that the conversation went something like this:

European sailor: What the heck is that thing?

Micronesian sailor: <It's a kor-kor, you idiot! A perfectly normal boat, not that that ungainly and slow thing you came on.> (heard as "blah, blah, blah, blah...")

European sailor: What?

Micronesian sailor: <A kor-kor! That's a boat, boat, boat!> (heard as "blah, proa, proa, proa!")

European sailor: Ah, so that funny looking sideways boat is a "proa"!

And then it makes its way back to Europe, gets picked up by Lord Byron (the earliest mention I've found of the term in English lit) et. al., and misunderstanding gives birth to a new word. The Micronesians have 3 different words for different sizes, and similar vessels (with the windward/leeward hulls) can be found all over the South Pacific, and if I remember right, as far as Sri Lanka. scot 20:59, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

Found a really good reference online on here at Google Books. The sailing boat: a description of English and foreign boats by Henry Coleman Folkard, 4th Ed., published 1870, Longmans & Co., London scot 14:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Pages 242-250 cover the Ladrone islands proa, with accounts dating back to Antonio Pigafetta's "Voyage Around the World", (written about Magellan's 1519-1522 voyage), and including an 1860 British proa built by the Royal Mersey Yacht Club; this was a very close replica to the Ladrone islands proas, complete with rounded weather and flat lee sides to the hull, very unlike Munroe's flat bottom sharpie. scot 19:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Byron date

suspect an error/typo in the date about Byron visiting the Marianas in 1765 - he wasn't born till twenty years later —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.150.97 (talk) 00:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You are correct; someone confused Byrons; John Byron went to the Ladrones with Anson; he was the poet's grandfather. scot (talk) 01:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)