Talk:Private spaceflight

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[edit] AMSAT

I'm not sure why you think AMSAT should not be in this list. I'm putting it back as a fourth item in the list. --Alba 23:10, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

AMSAT doesn't make rockets, it makes satellites. There have been hundreds if not thousands of private, university, or non-profit satellites. But this article is about space flight. Rmhermen 05:57, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] space elevators

Added a brief paragraph covering Space Elevators, link to the Wikipedia article. Bdunbar 07:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

This article has more on the topic of planned spacecraft[1] that might be of use. Rmhermen 15:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal spaceflight and Space tourism

Any idea on how we should reconcile the Personal spaceflight section of Private spaceflight and the stand-alone Space tourism entry? They have a lot of conceptual overlap.

They have a lot of non overlap as well though. They are logically distinct. Space tourism can be provided by government or non government organisations; and private spaceflight can be unmanned (e.g. Falcon I).WolfKeeper 15:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article?

Has somebody involved with editing this article considered putting it forward for a GA nomination? I've just read through it informally, and at first glance it appears to fit the definition. JulesH 16:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What is a GA nomination? How does one submit an article for it? Kavanagh 12:54, 25 June 2007 (EST)
You can find everything about Good Articles and the nomination process for it at Wikipedia:Good articles. — Shinhan < talk > 17:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
As of April, 2008, it's not appropriate for GA. Far too much speculation, essay. Even though I worked in this field for years, I found this article, itself, more confusing in some areas than helpful. See Discussion below.
24.130.18.36 (talk) 21:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fundamentally misleading

The lead section states:

Government space agencies pioneered space technology in the early decades of the Space Age. Later on, large defense contractors began to develop and operate space launch systems, derived from government rockets, and commercial satellites.

This is fundamentally misleading. Private contractors large and small were involved in the U.S. space program very early. Rocketdyne and GE (Hermes project) in the 1940s, for example. Would it bo OK to say, "In the U.S., government space agencies contracted with private enterprises to pioneer space technology at the end of World War II"? And then, is there a good way to characterize the public vs. private interactions in the Soviet space program? (sdsds - talk) 05:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If the article at private sector were better, I would suggest a link to it. But neither it nor private enterprise (which is a redirect to capitalism) quite gets across the full flavor of the term "private" in this context. Although it is clear to those familiar with the subject, the article should probably state for naive readers that this is the intended meaning of private (as opposed to a meaning more like secret). (sdsds - talk) 17:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Sdsds: Does this clarify: "In the early decades of the Space Age, the government space agencies of the Soviet Union and United States pioneered space technology in collaboration with affiliated design bureaus and private enterprises." (Kavanagh - talk) 13:12, 25 June 2007 (EST)

[edit] Space launch organizations and List of private spaceflight companies

What portion of the List of private spaceflight companies should be included in the Space launch organizations section? Or should the Space launch organizations be empty and just refer to the List of private spaceflight companies? Kavanagh 12:57, 25 June 2007 (EST)

I think none of the list need to be here. If a company is really important it should be mentioned in the text of this article. Rmhermen 17:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Rmhermen: Does this article consolidation under the Private spaceflight companies subheader make sense? Kavanagh 16:49, 25 June 2007 (EST)

[edit] Private vs governmental

OK, this seems to be causing some problems with some people.

If an individual or group of individuals hires an aeroplane for a flight, then it's a private flight. Similarly if an individual or group hires a spacecraft for a flight, it's a private spaceflight.

If the government hires the same aeroplane for a flight, then it's a governmental flight. Or the same spacecraft, it's a governmental spaceflight.

For example The Space Shuttle was built by the companies that got folded into Boeing. So Boeing built the Space Shuttle, but it was paid for by the government. Boeing is arguably private (or at least corporate) but The Space Shuttle is a governmental launcher. The government pays for all of the flights on the space shuttle, so it is not part of Private Spaceflight.

If Bill Gates hired an Atlas V to launch himself or something into space, that's a private spaceflight.

Right?WolfKeeper 19:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that a government hiring a private operator makes it a government flight.(Kavanagh - talk) 16:45, 25 June 2007 (EST)
You're seriously claiming that if the government charters an aeroplane, that that isn't a governmental flight? Do you have a cite for that?WolfKeeper 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
An instance of government spaceflight is when NASA, who owns and operates the Space Shuttle, flies it. (Kavanagh - talk) 16:45, 25 June 2007 (EST)
I'm not entirely sure to what extent the Shuttle is operated by NASA, and to what extent by other companies; I think to a fair degree the actual work is contracted out. If the Shuttle was 100% operated and owned by Boeing, paid for by the government, it would still be a governmental spaceflight.WolfKeeper 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The manufacturer is not important but the operator is. If Bill Gates hires an Atlas V to launch himself, I'd argue the most accurate descriptor of that event is Personal spaceflight a.k.a. Space tourism, a subset of the Private spaceflight category. (Kavanagh - talk) 16:45, 25 June 2007 (EST)
It's not a question which is the 'most accurate' as the terms are not mutually exclusive, and you should note that space tourism is not in general a subset of private spaceflight; for example the Russian Soyuz is used, which probably doesn't entirely meet the definition of being run by a private company.WolfKeeper 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A good example of governmental spaceflight by a NASA employee[2].WolfKeeper 21:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

WolfKeeper: This confusion goes to the heart of the definition of Private spaceflight. I think there are two points of ambiguity: When one hears 'private' do they equate it with 'personal' or private enterprise? Do they understand Private spaceflight as an industry as much as it is an actual instance of a spaceflight? Is a spaceflight operator (or airline) any less 'private' whether the customer buying the flight is a company, individual or government?(Kavanagh - talk) 16:45, 25 June 2007 (EST)
Yes, it is different. Governments are neither private nor personal nor private enterprise.WolfKeeper 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
If the exclusive customer for a particular flight is the government, then it makes sense to also call that individual flight a "government spaceflight". But what about the label for the entire for-profit industry that provides space transport services to both government and private entites? Can we not call it, as it has been called, the "private spaceflight" industry? I'd argue that we should continue to call it the "private spaceflight" industry. Or do you just disagree with the industry label? Note the MIT Technology Review article: "NASA's Bold Plan for Private Spaceflight: The space agency wants private partners to launch cargo and crews into orbits. But is the private sector up to the challenge?"[3] or "Private Space: Times have never been more promising for proponents of commercial spaceflight".[4] In this article MIT classifies the firms that fly NASA's payloads in a competitive launch market as 'private spaceflight'. Is MIT incorrect with this use of the phrase? If MIT is correct... since those companies can sell their launch services to BOTH private customers and government customers, we cannot restrict the definition with the clause "and paid for by an entity other than a government." Do you still wish to restrict the Private spaceflight definition with that modifier? Thanks for taking the time to discuss this. If you find the MIT article persuasive, please remove the "paid for" modifier. Thanks! Kavanagh 22:11, 25 June 2007 (EST)
Well, if the particular company created the launch capability without any government money, then it's a private or commercial launch capability, and them launching government payloads on it, doesn't change that. But the particular launches that have government payloads on are governmental spaceflight. To a fair degree though, you're trying to work out exactly how much governmental support turns private into public (governmental), and there's no precise dividing line. I think that the main point of the article is not to find the dividing line but to describe the archetype.WolfKeeper 09:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "For Sale" image

Is this image really appropriate? It has nothing to do with the article and appears to be a poor attempt at humor.--Rtphokie (talk) 04:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SpaceShipOne ground.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Style, essay issues, citations

A little too much of this article is written like a personal essay. That's especially a problem where it drifts between the fanciful, the planned, and what's currently funded and in development.

Statements such as "during the early years of spaceflight only nation states had the resources to develop and fly spacecraft" are both untrue and speculation. A personality such as Howard Hughes could easily have used his organization to develop spacecraft, just as a casual example. (It wouldn't be difficult to come up with other possibilities, but, again, those too would be speculation!)

An example of a pointless, essay-type assertion is that asteriod mining "rewards" are "indeed huge", but that the technical challenges are somehow "equally large"? What does any of that mean? Then to go on "it seems like the private sector will wait..." is totally unfounded speculation.

Where the article already has much of the necessary information, but could benefit from a little essay-type speculation, is to tie together the events in the "History" section. For example, to explain the causes of changing role of the Space Shuttle. (Budgeting? NASA refocussing? Failure to meet international competition? Diminishing market?)

24.130.18.36 (talk) 21:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)