Talk:Prince George's County, Maryland

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Prince George's County, Maryland is part of WikiProject Maryland, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Maryland.
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Contents

[edit] Cities / Towns / Unincorporated Areas

Isn't it confusing to have a list of cities, then a list of towns, then a list of unincorporated areas, then a list of cities and towns? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.8.184.25 (talk) 13:29, 19 December 2003 (UTC)

This appears to have been taken care of since this comment was posted. --Thisisbossi 04:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The history of religious movements in a county is irrelevant?

You are not discussing religion in PG. You are talking about one particular megachurch in an area with over 800 (according to the article). Generalize it and you can go somewhere with this. But the history of one particular church is not relevant here. Additionally, your behavior is rife with personal attacks. It is clear you are not particpating here in a manner that is appropriate. -James Howard (talk/web) 15:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Take it up with a moderator if you have a problem. I'm going to leave the information off; it's available anyway if it becomes relevant in the future. Danny Lilithborne 15:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime?

Some articles, like the one for Suitland, Maryland talk about PG's high crime rate, but this article doesn't mention it. I think it's worth a mention but don't know much about it. --Awiseman 18:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Prince Georges County doesn't have a high crime rate. Suitland is the worst place in PGC. --Signed as:Ddavis014 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.202.1 (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to know who the above person is, if only to find out who is so naive about PG County, Md. I live there, and trust me, it has the highest crime rate of any county in Maryland. In 2006 it's murder rate was higher than Washington, D.C., the former murder capital of the nation. It has the lowest test scores of any county in Maryland, second only to Baltimore city. I think the same people who constantly push the "PG is the highest concentration of middle class blacks" statistic are the same ones that try to sweep it's blistering crime rate under the rug. I bet the above, anonymous, poster is a member of Jack Johnson's office, trying to make his struggling county look better without actually doing something about it. Richard Corey 20:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to have to agree with Richard Corey. I lived there and I still work there... it's definitely not pleasant when my fieldworks takes me inside the Beltway -- Suitland or not. Hyattsville and Riverdale, in particular, are not the most pleasant of trips. The County has its better spots, definitely, but it is notorious for its worse-off areas. --Thisisbossi 22:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Seconded. I live in Prince George's County, and I agree that something about its crime and "tough" culture needs to be mentioned. (Very many primary sources could be located to support the significance/relevance of this topic, if necessary.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seethaki (talk • contribs) 19:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
THIRDED! I work as the police in PGC and am well aware of the crime rate that Mr. Anonymous is unaware of. If we are to get past the stereotype that Wikipedia is "Liberal-Biased" we need to include EVERYTHING and not look at the world through rose-colored glasses. However, there still ARE some very nice (and dare I say "Ritzy") areas in PG (e.g., Brandywine, Upper Marlboro, Bowie to name a few). It is a shame, though, that no matter where you live in PG, regardless if you live in a 1.5 million dollar house in Bowie...to outsiders, you still live in Suitland. Sallicio (talk) 23:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Sallicio

I was told College Park is usually much better. -- Toytoy 11:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

From my experiences living in College Park proper, I'd say it's safer; but not safe by most people's standards. The campus tries to keep pretty tight security at the roadway access points, but there are still significant issues in or near the University and/or within the immediate vicinity of College Park. Tthere are other communities which are (in my opinion) must worse than College Park, definitely. Granted, all the above is opinion, based on personal experience living, working, and studying in the area as well as monitoring news articles; but I do not have any data to support my claims. I suspect there may be some helpful info somewhere on the County's website (though the user-interface for the website is not particularly friendly, like that of MoCo or AA County. I know the police maintain a GIS system where crimes are denoted by type and location, and most police districts maintain online reports of recent activity -- that might help form a good start for necessary resources/references regarding any crime mentions within the main article. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
College Park is a small oasis of relatively low crime nestled between Hyattsville/Landover to the southeast and Langley Park to the northeast. Being the police in PG, I can testify to what Thisisbossi said. Sallicio (talk) 23:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Sallicio

I edited the wrong section below. I've been living in Prince George's County for almost a decade and feel that introducing it with the crime statistic is incredibly unfair. Popular notions linking the presence of African Americans with crime ignores issues of class and opportunity. Moreover, as I noted below, it is curious that other county profiles don't seem to have their negative characteristics mentioned up front in a way to tarnish the subsequent descriptions. What if we introduced Fairfax County nearby with the number of domestic violence incidences, or number of white-collar employees laid off? These statistics would be relevent to the quality of life in those areas, but they aren't mentioned in a way to introduce new readers to their counties. - unsigned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.126.166.194 (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

My original comment focused on the issue of leading off with a crime statistic. Without looking again at how the introduction had been changed I looked at other parts of the country that had comparable African American populations to compare crime statistics. At the same time, I found that the Department of Justice itself said on its Bureau of Statistics website that researchers ought not compare counties to each other--so while that comparison started moving me toward optimism, I'll heed the DOJ's warning. Secondly, I agree with an earlier comment that while I did think the lead was unfair, issues regarding crime should not be completely overlooked, just dealt with in context. But having now seen the update, I personally appreciate the fact that the introduction has been changed. Yet, hopefully citizens of the county will find ways that we all can address issues of crime on our own-- help teenage youth find meaningful activities; raise our children with a respect of the rule of law; cooperate in whatever ways we can in neighborhood-based crime prevention initiatives; and helping law enforcement carry out their mandate.72.66.88.239 (talk) 23:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)signed: a prince george's county resident who believes in its people.

[edit] Demographics

Is it true that Prince George's County is the only SUBURBAN county with an African-American majority? If so, this should be noted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.86.234.245 (talk) 17:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

++++ I've looked at other snaopshots of state counties. Why does the primary author of this Wikipedia article feel the need to immediately propose the high crime rate of the county? Whether it is true or not, you'll see by looking at other profiles, that the most negative aspect of other counties doesn't seem to rise to the top when other counties are viewed. - unsigned ++++ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.126.166.194 (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Gardez Bien

I reverted the edits (again) made by Gardez Bien for the same reason I have provided in the MoCo Discussion: I agree that the information is relevant as far as PG's history goes; but it's already properly accounted for in the History section. Feel free to post rebuttals here rather than starting a reversion war. --Thisisbossi 04:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This same issue was raised on Washington, D.C. (see related discussion), and Gardez Bien similarly edit warred despite the clear consensus against it being anything but of historical relevance. I previously posted a notice on WP:ANI for admin intervention, but no one responded. He is clearly determined to push his POV as to what is important regardless of what anyone else thinks, and inexcusably slurs others who disagree with him as "trolls" or "vandals." If I weren't involved, I'd block him myself. Postdlf 15:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps they agree that it is relevant? Three avid Wiki posters is far from a consensus.You guys seem to be the only ones ticked off about it. Can I ask a couple questions? Why does it bother you so much and why do you find it so irrelevant? Please post valid reasons.Gardez Bien 02:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
One edit warrior is hardly a consensus, and you are the only one who wants it up front at center. You've at least relented from absurdly trying to make it the defining fact of every topic (opening the article with something like "Prince George's County is one of two counties in Maryland that donated land to Washington, D.C."). But the basic objection is the same that was raised in the D.C. article, and as above by Thisisbossi—it's a matter of historical relevance, but not so integral to an understanding of the topic that it should be in the introduction rather than discussed in the history section. You're the only one who insists on the contrary, apparently due to some kind of local Maryland pride judging from your comments on the D.C. talk page (including your rant about all of us somehow being southern sympathizers for disagreeing with you), rather than for an objective, editorial reason. You just need to accept that no one agrees with you. Postdlf 02:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
And without further discussion, and without even leaving a bloody edit summary, you add your edit right back in despite clear opposition.[1] Postdlf 02:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Due to the similarity in edits by the users Simpledays (talk ;; contrib) and Gardez Bien (talk ;; contrib), be advised that there is a possibility that the two may be sock puppets. At this time I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to pursue it further, but the similarities should be noted. --Thisisbossi 23:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The user(s) have been reported. Feel free to post additional evidence here. --Thisisbossi 12:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

POSTED FROM MARYLAND TALK PAGE WITH ACKNOWLEDGEMENT FROM Thisisbossi

I'm getting the sense of a double standard for Maryland here. Why is Maryland the focus of this brigade when other state intros are equivalent? I’ve avoided posting in these discussions because it seems you guys are reluctant to seeing the truth and now I have to write a book to get my point across. Even still you will believe what you want to because of personal preference or you don’t “feel it belongs”. Most of all I’m sure you could care less about the state itself otherwise you wouldn’t object. But you want an answer so here it is...
If you think the intro to the Maryland page needs a rework then you have your work cut out for you because you’re going to have to change just about every other state. Case in point, this is the last paragraph from the Commonwealth of Virginia intro,
"Virginia is known as the "Mother of Presidents", because it is the birthplace of eight U.S. presidents (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, Zachary Taylor, and Woodrow Wilson), more than any other state. Most of the United States' early presidents were from the state. Virginia has also been known as the "Mother of States", because portions of the original Colony subsequently became Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, and West Virginia as well as some portions of Ohio."
How is that anymore relevant than proclaiming "Maryland donated the land for Washington, D.C."? Doesn't talk about presidents from decades past and ceding portions of land belong in the History section according to you?
Not convinced? Here’s part of the intro from the State of Wisconsin, this should put your economic fears to rest,
Wisconsin's rural economy was originally based farming (especially dairy), mining, and lumbering. In the 20th century tourism became important, and many people living on former farms commuted to jobs elsewhere. Large-scale industrialization began in the late 19th century in the southeast of the state, with the city of Milwaukee as its major center. In recent decades, service industries, especially medicine and education, have become dominant. Wisconsin's landscape, largely shaped by the Wisconsin glaciation of the last Ice Age, makes the state popular for both tourism and many forms of outdoor recreation.
In previous version they were proclaiming fur trade!!! But it's a sin to proclaim the life sciences which has become the foremost important industry in Maryland right now?
Didn’t get the message? Try the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
During the 19th century, Massachusetts transformed itself from a mainly agricultural economy to a manufacturing one, making use of its many rivers for power to operate factories for shoes, furniture, and clothing. Its economy declined in the early twentieth century when industry moved south in search of cheaper labor. A revitalization came in the 1970s when, nourished by the graduates of the area's many elite institutions of higher education, the Boston suburbs (particularly those around Route 128) became home to dozens of high-technology companies. Massachusetts' colleges and universities, as well as its technology sectors, continue to thrive.
The state is also considered a haven for progressive, liberal thought and often sends political candidates to the national scene, however, the four most recent presidential aspirants, Ted Kennedy, Michael Dukakis, Paul Tsongas, and John Kerry, were all unsuccessful. . Massachusetts was the home state of US Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Calvin Coolidge, and John F. Kennedy, and the birth state of George H. W. Bush.
As of 2006, Massachusetts is the only state in the union to legalize marriage of gay and lesbian couples.
Must I continue? It should be clear by now.
Thisisbossi said
  • My version was hardly all about geography: it had a sentence touching upon its Civil War history as well as some information on its population and economy.
This is what you left posted in the intro
"Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]), nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State, is located along the East Coast of the US. Historically a border state, it exhibits characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States. Consequently, it can be considered both a Mid-Atlantic state and a South-Atlantic state.
Maryland comprises a mountainous western panhandle, a fertile coastal plain, and a central region. Chesapeake Bay is largely within the confines of the state. The broad central region includes a stretch of the eastern Megalopolis: an entirely metropolitan region stretching from Northern Virginia to Massachusetts that contains over 50 million people."
Thisisbossi version above is entirely about Geography, which sould go in the Geography section. The portion about Maryland being part of a Megalopolis is totally irrelevant. It is neither important nor does it define anything unique about the state. Civil war info belongs in the history section as well. Furthermore you would have to include the text in the intro of every state that is part of the Megalopolis. Why would you put it in with only Maryland?
Thisisbossi said
  • Gardez Bien's reversion does not provide any additional information regarding the future and picks and chooses among traits that I do not personally find to be all-that important as far as Maryland goes. I would sooner highlight Maryland's federal industries rather than its life science industries.
If you feel the Life Sciences Industry in Maryland is extraneous, then no offense but you don't know squat about Maryland. The federal government’s role is confined to the capital region and even then they are not as dependent on the federal government as other parts of the D.C. region. The federal government also has ver over life sciences?
On the other hand, the life sciences stretches across the entire state, no other industry gets such special treatment and incentives. Bio parks, incubators, drug manufacturing plants, stem cell research funds, organizations, institutions, EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LIFE SCIENCES INDUSTRY. Right now the Life Sciences is Maryland’s crown jewel industry and they have put more focus on it than any other. It is very much part of Maryland's past, present and FUTURE.
Thisisbossi said
  • The information I had provided was the exact same information that was previously in the article -- I did not add anything new and in fact preserved all of what was initially provided. My post on Gardez Bien's talk page -- prior to his reversion -- indicated to open discussion before another reversion (there have been revert wars beginning on the two County pages); but he did not do so. Therefore I am reverting his edit again until proper reasoning can be provided and/or consensus is reached on this issue. My reversion will at last address the spelling I errors that I had fixed, which Gardez Bien's reversion brought back (if you're going to revert, at least fix your errors!).
I found a grammatical error in what you just said, should I help you correct it? Not only that but my revised (by you) paragraph about life sciences (that is so neatly hidden and tucked away in the economy section) doesn't make much sense. What aforementioned "institutions and agencies" are you referring to? I still stand by the first two paragraphs of the intro having irrelevant data at his point especially the part about it being a Megalopolis.
Overall the intro for Maryland has turned weak and geography heavy, the intro should have important highlights that are unique to the state. Donating the land for the Capital of the United States is a fact no other state can claim and very much defines the state and that region. Withoout that fact things would be drastically different. I'm also surprised how many people forget or don't know this fact so because of that alone it is totally relevant in the intro. Any other state in the world would not leave out that kind of information.
Can I ask a question? Why does the paragraph on donating the land bother all of you so much? Please give valid non generalized, impersonal reasons than "I don't like it".
I'm sorry if my info was too factual. If you don't like Maryland's intro get started on changing all 50 states, the District and the territories.
I enjoyed the conversation Gardez Bien 01:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your response and for your excellent points -- which is all I had really wanted. I will now leave my hands off this issue and, with the above information for consideration, leave others to modify as they see fit. --Thisisbossi 02:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Crime Rate

Okay, let's be real. I, an African-American male over the age of 26, am well aware of how we, as a people, tend to not like being lumped into stereotypical categories and rightfully so. HOWEVER, when the shoe fits...

We're not talking about a county with a somewhat, kinda, possibly, high crime rate. I've had the distinction of working as a reporter for the Prince George's County Journal and with reporters from the Montgomery County Journal, and let me tell you it was 'night and day' believe me. Montgomery County, the county with the next closest crime rate, had around 10 to a dozen murders that year. Prince George's County had close to 200.

That bears mentioning.

To say otherwise is outright revisionist propaganda. A problem is a problem. Bringing them to light is how they're solved. But it is my belief that the Prince George's County government would rather hold on to the positive (which is positive, don't get me wrong. We are the highest concentration of middle class blacks in the country, the National Harbor WILL be huge, we do have many development projects on the horizon) than to admit, recognize and rectify the negative. That's like "burying" the word "nigger" in hopes of easing racial tension...but that's another story for another day.

Now, I DO see an issue with putting the crime rate in the first paragraph. I can understand why it was done, but still. I'm apprehensive about deleting it because it was properly cited, but maybe it can be moved down into its own section. Or something. Ever since the late eighties and into the ninetees, crime (along with education) has been the cornerstone issue of Prince George's County. To not mention it would throw away the whole point of an encyclopedia. Richard Corey 18:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

  • WELL SAID! Sallicio (talk) 23:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Sallicio

[edit] DC Renovations allocating low-income families + DC's rising white population/lower crime rate + PG's higher black population/increased property costs/higher crime rate

I am a mixed (half-white/half-black) and have lived in PG all my life. At one time, I do recall the crime rate being moderate. However, sometime during the 2000s, age-old apartment complexes were being renovated, condemned, and torn down, thus forcing low-income families to move out. At the same time, taxes have risen to substantial amounts, making it so these families cannot afford to live in the area and newer buildings being constructed. Therefore, families from DC are being "forced" out to live in Maryland, most of which have migrated to PG since its the closest and most convenient. Coincidentally, more and more white families have begun to fill the empty homes. This is when the crime rate in DC began to lower as the crime rate in PG began to rise. And as of recent years, PG's property costs have sharply risen to higher prices. Most reading this would get what I am implying, but speculation and original research is not by Wikipedia's standards so I have no intentions of adding it to the article. However, I do believe that the information pertaining to the population increases, real estate costs, and crime rate differences can be included in the article as long as it doesn't imply some conspiracy theory, government corruption, or some other biased view. Also, I believe the rise in Hispanic population should be included. However, none of this information will be added till either I or someone else retrieves references for the aforementioned info. The Exiled Fighter (talk) 08:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)