Talk:Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood

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This sentence is rather unclear:

The group's intention was to reform art by rejecting what they considered to be the mechanistic approach adopted by the Mannerist artists who followed the concept of painting prevalent before the High Renaissence and artists like Raphael and Michelangelo. Hence the name 'Pre-Raphaelite'.

It seems to say the Mannerist artists painted in the style prevalent before the High Renaissence, which surely can't be right. -- Tarquin 11:08, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

perhaps it is supposed to be after the reaissance? That would make sense.

Yes, it's utter and complete gibberish. This is the sentence as I originally wrote it: "The Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood was a group of English painters, poets and critics whose intention was to reform art by rejecting what they considered to be the mechanistic approach adopted by the Mannerist artists who followed Raphael and Michelangelo. Hence the name 'Pre-Raphaelite'." Some idiot has rewritten it. There is also a lot of other nonsense here about the 'high point of English art in the middle ages', and about varnishing between layers of pigment - which has nothing to do with the PRB whatever and is historically false. This article needs to be completely re-written. Paul B

Contents

[edit] Jane Morris

There's no "may have" about Rossetti's affair with Jane Morris; it is thoroughly documented. I gave her the dignity of mentioning her name and added a link to Jane Burden. PKM 21:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

No it isn't. I think they provbably did have sex, but there is no proof. It's not "thoroughly documented", IMO. Evidence? Paul B 23:59 23 july 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Related to Art nouveau?

Maybe it's just the first (Persephone) and last (Medea) painting in the article, but it seems like the style was similar/predecessor to art nouveau. Is it just coincidence? 66.229.160.94 02:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

No coincidence. The Rossetti wing of PR style influenced the development of Art nouveau. Paul B 09:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technical Question

I tried searching "Preraphaelite" with no results, but eventually found this site. Might we link "Preraphaelite" with this page in some way, for those who search without the hyphen (which is not entirely standard, in my experience, at least regarding Prepraphaelite literature). Antonio Giusti 06:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Antonio Giusti

The hyphen is standard in modern literature, though there are some old books that use the unhypenated version (and even preraffaelite or pre-raffaelite). However, I have created redirect links for Preraphaelite and Preraphaelites. Paul B 11:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Antonio Giusti 19:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Antonio Giusti


[edit] Not Pre-Raphaelite?

Re the deletion below, I don't know all these artists, but aren't F. Leighton and Waterhouse commonly considered among the Pre-Raphaelite school? Museums certainly present them as though they are when displaying their work. Should this deletion be restored, or is there some fine distinction being drawn here of which I'm unaware?

   ===Loosely associated artists===        +

- *Wyke Bayliss (painter) - *John William Godward (painter) - *Thomas Cooper Gotch (painter) - *Edward Robert Hughes (painter) - *Edmund Blair Leighton (painter) - *Lord Frederic Leighton (painter) - *John William Waterhouse (painter)

Antonio Giusti 03:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)Antonio Giusti

Some anonymous IP deleted it. It might have been pure vandalism, but no professional art historian would call F. Leighton a "Pre-Raphaelite"; he wasn't thought to be one at the time, and he didn't think of himself as one. Waterhouse is often described as such, but his actual style is very ifluenced by Bastien Lepage and the "square brush" school. The probem is that almost any artist of the period who painted dreamy medieval subjects or mythic themes is popularly labelled a Pre-Raphaelite. I'm in two minds about whther the list should stay or go. Paul B 10:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I figured it was something like that -- eg the way people commonly use the term "impressionism" too broadly and inclusively. Why not add a small clarification about the term, including the info above? Many might find it of interest. Antonio Giusti 17:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)Antonio Giusti

[edit] French article

The title on the French Wikipedia article is "The Pre-Raphaelism".

It is a pure neologism, isn't it ?

That term denies absolutely the idea of fraternity and collaboration, I think.

One cannot criticize the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood even if they knew some tightenings with each other.

The right translation should be "La Fraternité Pre-Raphaëlite" or something like that. ( "Confrérie" is word very much too conventionnal, and formal. )

What is your viewpoint ?

Maybe you don't speak french, do you ?

Glad for earring from you,

Ceeloo (talk) 13:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't speak French very well, even though I live some of the year there. However, the French should decide for themselves what they should call it. It's a matter of accepted convention. Paul B (talk) 13:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
As Paul B stated before: I think that it's up to the French Wikipedia's authors to decide this, but my personal opinion is that the article's title should not be a “correct” translation of Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood but the established name for these painters in France.
I'm a German, so at least I know that the conventional german term is de:Präraffaeliten. To be more precise, “Präraffaeliten” denotes the painters making pictures in this very style, and “Präraffaelitische Bruderschaft” is used as translation for the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood itself—the latter is a subsection of the german article. I do not speak well enough french, but from the links fr:Préraphaélisme#Liens externes and the article fr:Préraphaélisme itself, I assume that its the same in French: «Préraphaélisme» is the name of the style in French, and «La fraternité pré-raphaélite» is the usual translation of the brotherhood itself. But I see, you're from France, so maybe you can proof this better than I do.
(By the way, here you find help how to sign your contributions, this will generate a link to your user page. I have modified your manual signature under your contribution in this way now, I hope that was ok.)
Hope, this clarifies somewhat the problem with the brotherhood. --Cyfal (talk) 18:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Academic/Mannerist

Johnbod changed the following sentences with the following edit summary "Raphael is the antithesis of mannerism, which hardly needed reacting against in 1848!":

The group's intention was to reform art by rejecting what they considered to be the mechanistic approach adopted by the Mannerist artists who followed Raphael and Michelangelo. They believed that the Classical poses and elegant compositions of Raphael in particular had been a corrupting influence on academic teaching of art. Hence the name "Pre-Raphaelite". In particular they objected to the influence of Sir Joshua Reynolds, the founder of the English Royal Academy of Arts.

He replaced 'Mannerism' with 'Academicism'. I've partly reverted, but changed "followed" with "succeeded", since the former word was ambiguous and could mean either "came after" or "imitated". I'm not sure that Raphael can be considered the antithesis of Mannerism, since the Transfiguration is widely seen as proto-Mannerist. I can see good reason for the change, however, but still feel that "academic" is far too vague a concept here. The reason they chose to imagine themselves as "pre-Raphael" is that the Mannerist style inaugurated a form of art that fed on a kind of visual commentary on pre-existing styles. Mannerism was widely seen as the prototype of artistic "degeneration" by the rejection of naturalism in favour of self-conscious stylishness. That's the essential nature of the PR claim, and of Ruskin's criticisms of post-Raphael artists, many of which are not in any definable sense "academic". Paul B (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a bit clearer now, although it still is likely to give the careless or ignorant reader the impression that Mannerists were stalking the streets of 1840s London. On Raphael, proto-Baroque certainly, but I agree with this chap "not even in the last touches from Raphael's brush in the Transfiguration does he disclose the slightest departure in the direction of Mannerism ...". Moses and Elijah were just tall in my view. :) Johnbod (talk) 14:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)