Talk:Posse Comitatus Act

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The Homeland Security section needs cleaning up in some way as it does not introduce why the section is relevant very clearly. Perhaps because I do not live in the United States it is less clear than to a North American but this still means that the section requires cleanup. Hydraton31 12:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

What does posse comitatus mean in Latin? -- Error

Power to the county, or power of the county. Meaning giving authority to the lowest level of US government. -- Zoe

Actually what you see in those old cowboy movies when they talk about the sheriff getting a posse together is accurate. It is a group of local individuals who have been authorized by the sheriff to conduct a manhunt or search for an individual who they had the authority to arrest or place in the county jail.

Technically, at least originally the Latin "power of the county" isn't about giving authority to the lower levels of government. The "power of the county" was the power of government inherent in the county, and vested in its chief magistrate the sheriff, to conscript able-bodied men into the posse. It isn't about federalism or keeping government small; that's a romantic association that comes mostly from Hollywood. It's about the authority of government to do what it takes to govern. -- IHCOYC

Black's Law Dictionary 6th ed defines it thus: Posse comitatus "The power or force of the county. The entire population of a county above the age of fifteen, which a sheriff may summon to his assistance in certain cases, as to aid him in keeping the peace, in pursuing and arresting felons, etc." BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY 1162 (6th ed. 1990). It first was used in referring to the military in Us Federal Act of Sept. 18, 1850, ch. 60, 9 Stat. 462, 462-63 a law that empowered federal marshals to return lost slaves to their owners. The US Attorney General believed the posse comitatus included the army Extradition of Fugitives from Service, 6 Op. Att'y Gen. 466, 473 (1854), this is what later led to the passage of the act. It is an old English term -- it was not invented in America. Its original use was from the structure of the pre-Norman county governments of England.Alex756

Be prepared to update this page if Federal troops are used for law enforcement activities in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. --JD79 00:55, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Just a note on the translation -- posse comitatus does not quite literally mean "the power of the country" although it is similar. "Posse" is a verb, "comitatus" is a noun. Posse comes from possum, meaning "I can, I am able to", and posse is infinitive active. Comitatus is probably a perfect participle passive from comito, which means "I follow, or I am part of". Therefore working back from that the correct translation (as best as English can render Latin), it would be something like "to be able to make someone part of a retinue or group"; in other words, to be able to incorporate people into a crew (for a law-enforcement purpose, presumably). It's probably from a truncated phrase, like "posse comitatus factus esse" or something like that. quod erat demonstrandum. Cato


rand corperation link dead

(Rand link working - --Costoa 00:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC))

Contents

[edit] USCG correction needed?

Before the DHS (Department of Homeland Security) the US Coast Guard was under the Department of Transportation. During a declared war they were under the US Navy, similar to the US Marine Corps. Even now since they aren't under the control of the DoD The Posse Comitatus Act is not an issue for them and IMO this should be somehow expressed.

The USCGs relationship to the US military has always be a bit of an enigma.

--Costoa 00:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Technically speaking, it doesn't matter. PCA only applies to the Army, and by extension, the Air Force. Besides, I think, officially, the CG is only a military branch at times of war. I agree though, something about its application to all the branches should be articuled very clearly and in its own section. Mmmbeer 01:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Why doesnt somebody actually post the act in its entirety so that everybody may read it so that interpreations are cross checked.

Actually the USCGs relationship to the US military is not really an engima as it is part of the US military, just not in the Department of Defense.

  • Title 14, United States Code, Section 1, states "The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times.".

[edit] Where is the original article from a few months ago

In light of the Bush administration trying to limits abilities for more access to Huricane Katrina, did this article get rewritten. Especially the part that impeachment for profiting from the military. This seems not to be listed, but only a fine or a maximium two year sentence is referred. Nothing about its origination during Lincon's presidency and after. A lot is missing and a lot is watered down.

[edit] John Warner act text

I just reverted an unsourced statement:

The John Warner Defense Authorization Act, signed October 17, 2006, (Section 1076) has effectively repealed this Act.

I came to this article because I was looking for informaton on this act, and it's possible that the text is accurate, but the only source I've found so far that makes the above assertion is an editorial. I'd like to see some solid references before it's added back in, but since the original author was an IP user, I've got to make the appeal here. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 03:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the statement should be reinstated. The Act refered to states that "the President may employ the armed forces to (...) suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy" if the authorities of that State refuse to act. (cf. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:6:./temp/~c1098A7DDu:e939907: ). This means that, if the President thinks there is a conspiracy and the State disagree, he can send in the troops. Isn't that what Posse Comitatus is supposed to prevent?


[edit] Latin Etymology

I have added the translation of Posse Comitatus as a section. This should give an historical reference to what the meaning is about. Mark Preston (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Packard Memo

This needs rewriting since it just seems to restate the Insurrection Act.

Roadrunner (talk) 00:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

In 1971, Deputy Secretary of Defense David Packard wrote the Packard Memo or Employment of Military Resources in the Event of Civil Disturbances that modified the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 32, Volume 2, Chapter 1, Part 215, Section 6. This addition allegedly revoked a substantial part of the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act and provided for 'exceptions' to the Act "to prevent loss of life or wanton destruction of property and to restore governmental functioning and public order when sudden and unexpected civil disturbances, disasters, or calamities seriously endanger life and property and disrupt normal governmental functions to such an extent that duly constituted local authorities are unable to control the situation" and "to protect Federal government functions when the need for protection exists." "Packard's directive (stated) that turning over law enforcement will 'normally' require a Presidential Executive Order, but that this requirement can be waived in 'cases of sudden and unexpected emergencies... which require that immediate military action be taken." (Lindorff, 1988) Packard's directive, in essence, reinstated the possibility of martial law in the United States, prohibited since 1878.

However, the enumerated powers of the constitution grant no authority to the executive branch to unilaterally alter the law or otherwise usurp powers reserved for the legislative branch. This can only be accomplished by amending or repealing the law itself through the constitutional legislative process. "Martial law was defined in an integral Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) memo written in 1982... The memo, written by FEMA official John Brinkerhoff to agency director Louis Giuffrida, notes that martial law “suspends all prior existing laws, functions, systems, and programs of civil government, replacing them... with a military system.” (Lindorff, 1988).

[edit] Recent legislative events

For longterm wiki use this section should be re-written. In addition it states "original text" date of 1807 with a passing date of 1878. I do not know the facts but there is definitely something wrong with the time lines. JMJimmy (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)