Talk:Polish heroin
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[edit] Wrong: no drug known "can only be injected"
The statement by the author of this stub that "Polish heroin'/kompot can only be injected is patently false. Any drug that can be injected intravenously (or by other routes of administration) can also be taken and absorbed orally, and possibly intra-mucosally (snorting/sniffing) and by smoking/vaporization. Heroin is typically injected as a matter of economy, though it was commonly taken orally in its days of legal use as a patent medicine for cough, diarrhea, and pain. A typical IV dose today for a heroin addict might be in the range of 4 to 50 milligrams, where an oral dose producing similar effects (without the "rush" so sought by IV users) might be somewhere from 20 to 100 mg., as heroin is somewhat poorly absorbed by the gut (as is morphine). So, the end product of the so-called "Kompot" method may readily be taken orally, though many users would consider this an inefficient or wasteful use of material, as street opiates are very expensive (ironic, since morphine, heroin/diacetyl-morphine, and many other opiates are among the most inexpensive drugs in the pharmacopeia to manufacture). On the other hand, the risks from shooting this garbage, of poisoning (from other than opiates), infection, embolism, abcess, gangrene, venous rupture and sclerosis, the total impossibility of gauging a safe dosage at all, and myriad other medical problems, are quite severe and immediate, surely deserving the epithet "junk" better than any other opiate I know. Please gods, don't even think of injecting this mess!66.109.195.14 07:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Not wrong
The drug is in liquid form and it's the most popular form of heroin in Poland. The brown powder can be purchased almost exclusively in the capital city of Warsaw and it appears sometimes in other bigger cities. It is commonly injected. Sure water can be evaporated but the stuff is usually so weak that any other method of administration is insufficient.
Also, the article states that 'Polish heroin' is a misnomer. It's mostly false, as the receipt goes morphine (well, the extract to be precise) is acetylated with acetic anhydride or highly concentrated acetic acid. It's going to be from tan to brown either way but acetylation makes it more potent and heroin can be easily distinguished from morphine by more experienced users. The method a bit changed but it's still kompot. So, the author got it wrong that it disappeared after the Soviet Union had broken up.
Doubleffect 02:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Which is it? Kompot or Polish Heroin? What eactly are we really referring to here?
The confusion that has arisen in this article and discussion, is that the term "Polish heroin" is actually a simple descriptive, much as "Cambodian heroin" or Mexican heroin." That is, it is simply heroin that is manufactured and sold in Poland. That much is clear from a cursory review just now by myself of the US DEA web site and various links from there. Further, the term "Kompot" or "compote" appears to have a dual application at the moment. In discussing the phenomenon of heroin manufactured in Poland from dried poppy straw, most of which has already been drained of opium/sap, DEA writers and their Polish colleagues refer to the compote method of extraction of morphine from poppy straw, which as discussed below was or is a legitimate technique used by pharmaceutical companies to extract the maximum morphine from poppies, even after tradition opium extraction has been performed (and possibly accounting from the reported low potency of the finished product).The method was invented by an Hungarian during WWII. However, a practice of opiate addicts (in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Russia, and other countries) of boiling poppy pods in water and either calcium anhydride or calcium chloride to extract the morphine, is well-documented and was fairly pervasive up to the late 1980's at least.
So I think we are talking about two separate but related phenomena when we mention "polish heroin," "kompot," and the compote method. I can't argue the chemistry here, except as informed layman who has read the literature (mostly behavioral health and law enforcement in orientation), and as one who has walked some of the same streets where this practice was widespread. I think this article may need to be split into two, one for "polish heroin", the other for "kompot". "Kompot", as such, was not, as the initial author wrote, 'discovered' in the 50's. The process was originally meant as both a shortcut in the legitimate pharmaceutical production of morphine and deriviatives, and as a means of extracting residual morphine from poppy straw which had previously been incised for its opium, by a Hungarian chemist in the early 1940's, at a time when Nazi Germany was very short on morphine. In fact, the development of methadone (originally named "Dolophine" after Hitler) was part of the same program. (I will follow up with a name later, as I can't presently find the two articles which discuss the man and his work right now). It involved I believe calcium anhydride. Somehow, later addicts learned about this and began stewing poppy pods in calcium chloride (though that may be my bad memory, as it seems odd, though since CaCl is alkaline, morphine [an alkaloid] may have an affinity for it and attach one molecule to the other), and skimming the surface of the brew, and injecting that. These guys can't get or afford acetic anhydride, even if they know what it is. It is a tightly controlled chemical, since it figures in many drug manufacture processes. When I find the material, there are also photos of addicts preparing the stuff, along with DEA/Interpol commentary. In Hungary and the Czech Republic, I never heard the term "polish heroin.", though "kompot" was frequently mentioned, most often ridiculing older addicts and their desperation
"Kompot", as the word suggests (a stew), is not heroin of any kind at all, brown, black, or white. It is indeed weak, only marginally stronger than a strong cup of poppy tea (which by DEA estimates based on their research contains in the range of 2 to 5 milligrams of morphine). Strong enough by mouth for an occasional opiate user, but ridiculously weak for the chronic IV addict, even without the issue of those 5 mg. being diluted in 10 or 12 oz. (300-350 ml.) of water. There apparently is something called "polish heroin". From what I can gather it is even more weak, impure, and full of added hazard than South American black tar heroin (which apparently now is also being produced elsewhere as well). Heroin, as may already be well known to other participants here, is diacetyl-morphine (still in the UK pharmacopeia as "Diamorphine.") Black tar heroin, as is predominant on the US West Coast, also contains substantial amounts of mono-acetylmorphine. The characteristic vinegar smell of tar heroin is the residue of the acetylation/anhydride process. Compared to white powder heroin or the light brown powder that used to issue from Mexico et al., black tar is sludge. Like bathtub gin compared to surgical ethanol, the degree of contamination is that extreme. Anything prepared by "kompot" or similar methods is even worse.
I'm concerned here mostly with being certain of being explicit and candid about how dangerous it is to try to make your own heroin out of poppy pods. Here is one case where I've got to take Nancy Reagan's line and "just say no," to this stuff, at least. If you must, buy some poppy pods and make tea from them. That will certainly give you a buzz. And certainly there are a set of risks attendant on such a practice, but I want to be clear that you can't make heroin, polish or other, in a pot using poppy pods and calcium anhydride/chloride or whatever. There is a step or more missing here (and I don't wish to give any technical assistance in correcting this, except to emphasize that as such, "kompot" yields no heroin of any sort, and is the last form of opiate use I would ever recommend). "Polish heroin" turns out to be related, but far less of a hell's brew, than "kompot". In either case, these are among the most dangerous and least desireable substances to abuse. Certainly not for a shortcut to a heroin-high for someone with some dried poppys who has read some articles off the internet.
This would be a good point to mention that yes, experienced IV users can sometimes tell the difference between morphine and heroin. The entire pharmacological purpose behind heroin as compared to morphine was to create a drug that more easily crossed the blood-brain barrier and thus more quickly and effectively relieved acute pain. In this, it was successful (and as stated above, it still is in use for this purpose in the UK), even more so than the Bentley drugs like hydromorphone and oxycodone. Thus, heroin, in milligram equivalent doses, packs more of a kick than morphine. I have some considerable personal experience with all major opiates, pharmaceutical and other, and I strongly doubt anyone's ability to tell the difference except where both heroin and morphine are pharmaceutical or very pure from an illicit source. Possible, though I am even further skeptical of what an addict believes regarding a substance universally acknowledged as "so weak", as compared to morphine (which it should be remembered is almost always diverted pharmaceutical in origin when found on the street). Offered the choice, no addict who knows what he is being offered whould choose "kompot", however potent/evaporated over morphine. It is a last resort. So, the article clearly appears to be conflating two easily confused substances of abuse, and I urge they be divided. in fact, I may finally register on Wikipedia in order to help effect that division. "Kompot" is an especially dangerous substance, much more so than heroin in any of its forms. Ploish heroin may just be another product of drug traffickers like crack cocaine, crystal methampetamine, and black tar heroin and thus full of contaminants, wildly varying in potency, and made with even less concern for the well-being of its users.64.40.60.85 10:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Will
[edit] Actually, yes it is wrong.
Nothing in the chemistry or economics you state contradicts the basic fact that any opiate (and nearly all other drugs of any type) can be taken by mouth, i.e. orally, as well as being injected. To restate, any opiate (heroin, morphine, meperidine, hydromorphone, fentanyl, pentazocine, et al.) that can be injected (and also those like methadone, oxycodone, and codeine that should not be injected, but are by addicts) can also be swallowed, taken orally. Injection is a more efficient and direct route of administration. It takes less to produce the same effect (and oral administration bypasses the "rush" of the first few moments following IV administration), but morphine by mouth works, as does heroin by mouth. Most addicts with a high tolerance can't afford to "waste" their drug this way, but 50 mg. (or so) of heroin by mouth on an empty stomach will produce the same effect after 60 minutes that 10 mg. (or so) of heroin intravenously at the same interval. Heroin was initially marketed in the late 1890's for severe cough (as tablets or syrup) specifically because it is better absorbed by the gut than morphine is, and heroin binds less well to intestinal opioid receptors than morphine does. Diamorphine, a semi-generic name in the UK for none other than diacetylmorphine, AKA heroin, is prescribed in tablet form for the same cases and conditions that hydromorphone or Dilaudid is in the US and elsewhere. If by injecting an opiate you can achieve euphoria, a high, then you can also do so by taking it orally. You just have to take more. 66.109.193.85 07:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)Will
Do not change IT!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akro (talk • contribs) 16:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
