Talk:Playing card

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Playing card is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.

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[edit] King of Clubs

How can the King of Clubs be Alexander the Great if he is holding the Dominus Mundi, a christian symbol? I think that the King of Clubs is Charlesmagne and the hearts one is Alexander the Great.

(forgive my bad english)

[edit] Persian and Indian Influence

remember seeing in the british museum in london, the very same egyptian cards made on hard material, the persians also had such cards aswell... which i think should be state in the article.

also in northern india they had the round card back in the 1500's - http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:ua-OZ5KfR34J:www.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards.htm+persian+playing+card+history&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=8

Near the bottom there is an article on the 'Ganjifa decks' which also had some persian infulence, these are important parts in card history, as they were so early on, it should be added to the article!

[edit] International playing cards

This article is not really about the very varied general issue of playing cards, instead focussing mostly on the French suited cards, with only minor references to a few of the many other types. The whole issue of the Latin suited cards, for example, which lie at the origin of the Tarot cards (also used for playing games and not just for cartomancy) and which are the proper ones to use in games such as mus, tute, brisca and escoba, is knocked off in just one sentence. Most of the current content of this article belongs under French suited cards. The article Playing cards (I think in this case it would be better to name it in the plural) should cover the whole and varied issue of playing cards, without focussing on the particular card deck used and spread by the dominant culture. Uaxuctum 16:56, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC) concerning Tarot, I had to correct the false assumption that ALL tarot decks have Italian suits. I've included some pics of modern decks used in France and Austria for playing games. The spanish section was edited to correct a false assertion that the spanish decks were derived from tarot cards or have anything to do with major or minor arcanaSmiloid 22:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

For some reason, the text is overlapping the first picture when I view this article with Internet Explorer. -- April

That's odd; I went out of my way to make the table code dead simple and scrupulously standard; even Lynx shows it correctly, as do my graphical browsers, including my version of I.E. I'd like to hear from other I.E. users here. Perhaps you have a strange default font setting or something. --LDC

Do we really need the picture of the child with the cards in front of him? -- Zoe

Howdy. Great, great article. I've always wondered about the origin of playing cards, but have never cared enough to do any serious research. This article totally appeased my curiousity. The only suggestion I have is to maybe explain in better detail why the one-eyed jacks and the suicide king appear as they do. The suicide King especially seems of interest, as the origin obviously has nothing to do with Alexander, whom according to your article the card is based on. Otherwise, a great article. Thank you.

Salami swami 08:41, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)

The wording said that Ambition was a "notable" exception, which is simply not true. A one-year-old invented game is not a notable example of anything. Isomorphic 08:44, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"(Contract bridge, written in 1925, and Ambition written in 2003 are among a few exceptions)" was the wording. Notable appeared nowhere. Stop being such a troll and get a hobby-- you're wasting my time in a massive edit war. It's not fair to me, nor is it fair for the rest of Wikipedia's users. Please stop now. Mike Church 08:57, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mea culpa. You are correct. I tend to assume that the only exceptions mentioned should be notable exceptions - that's how I would have worded the sentence so I unthinkingly assumed that that was the wording. That doesn't change the fact that Ambition has no business being mentioned here. Isomorphic 09:35, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad you can admit this. However, I doubt that it was a mistake. I am surely not alone in thinking that you intentionally manipulated facts for your own agenda. I am 95% sure that you have a contract arrangement with some game company that is hostile to my ideas; however I presently cannot prove it. Your willful manipulation of facts gives you a credibility problem, so I have no guilt in removing many of your unjudicious edits. Mike Church 18:55, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Master of the universe

The bit about Italian and Dutch "master of the universe" games in 1100/1200 sounds fishy to me. (Also, did Dutch even sound like that so many years ago?)

I've removed it and pasted it here for reference. -- pne 05:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In the 1100s, the Dutch made a game called "ik ben de meester van het heelal" which means "I am the master of the universe".

In the 1200s, the Italians made a game called "soro il padorone dell'universo" which means "master of the universe".

[edit] The queen

Anne Boleyn article says : " Legend has it that this (Anne's) image is the basis for the queens in a deck of cards, but the actual inspiration was Anne's mother-in-law Elizabeth of York". Is this true ? I don't find a mention of it in this article. Jay 12:14, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Scarne

I added John Scarne to "See also" and Naive cynic removed him as irrelevant; how is he less relevant than Hoyle? (Respond here, not at my (or Naive cynic's) User_talk, please.) —msh210 17:56, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As 'not relevant enough', to be exact - he doesn't seem to be directly related to this article. Perhaps it would be better to add him, as a game author, to card games, together with Hoyle? -- Naive cynic 13:12, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough: I'll add them both there. Now, what's Hoyle doing on Playing card's "See also" list? —msh210

I certainly won't mind removing him. -- Naive cynic 23:05, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. —msh210 16:59, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The following sentences got removed during my refactor of /* Anglo-American */ because I thought they were inaccurate/in the wrong place. I'll put them back in somewhere sometime. They are presented here with my corrections. —Blotwell 5 July 2005 13:10 (UTC)

An Anglo-American four-color deck exists. It has different colors for its suits, but it is not in wide use.

When relevant, ~~most~~ some (see suit (cards)) modern card games follow the bridge ranking of suits, i.e. spades are highest, followed by hearts, diamonds, and clubs. A common mnemonic to recall this ranking is reverse alphabetical order.

Six-handed 500, and some other games, require extended standard decks with extra spot cards (in the case of 500, 11's, 12's, and red 13's)

[edit] Early history of playing cards

Here is one question about the early history of playing cards. t appears to be beyond question that the Mameluk deck predates any extant European deck and appears to be an exact equivalent of the modern 52-card deck. It also appears to be beyond question that it is consistent with Islamic practice not to show the court cards as icons of actual people but instead to show them as abstract designs with captions indicating their rank. It is not, however, logical to assume that the innovation of the court cards would have taken place in a culture in which the cards would have required a caption to identify them. Would it not have made more sense for Islamic card players to innovate by adding 11, 12, and 13 instead of by adding court courts? In addition, it makes sense that the Italian style of bastone may have been inspired by a polo stick as in the Mameluk deck, but it does not make as much sense that the Spanish cudgel-like basto would have had a similar origin. Judging from the designs alone, it makes more sense to suppose that the Spanish style of deck gave rise to the Italian, which in turn inspired the Mameluk style. This, however, is contrary to the known chronology, and that is problematic.

-- Bob (Bob99 16:45, 10 September 2005 (UTC)bob99)

I removed the comment about use of the joker in poker being largely faded; while it is true that Texas Hold'em is now by far the most common game in public clubs, one can still find draw games and others that use a joker without too much difficulty, and of course it remains common in home games. --LDC 02:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Best Brands

How about someone putting something about the different brands out there and what is consider best, paper, plastic, vinyl. KEM, Copag, Bicycle, Bee, Aviator, etc. 70.111.224.85 14:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Two comments. First, isn't "best" largely a matter of personal preference? In addition, of the five brands you've identified, four are produced by the same firm, U.S. Playing Card Co. A comparison of Bicycle and Bee will show that the face cards are identical. These two brands are U.S. Playing Card's flagship consumer and casino brands, respectively, and differ in details such as finish, the pattern on the back, and the design of the ace of spades. Aviator is one of U.S. Playing Card's value brands, which typically means a card manufactured on less expensive paper stock and with a less expensive finish. Casino cards have different requirements than consumer cards, since the average casino deck will be used for a period of 15 minutes while a consumer deck may continue in use for months or years. (Though Bee cards seem to stand up pretty well to long-term solitaire use.) That means that the trade-offs on which materials are optimized are different for casino cards than for consumer cards. A finish which will remain perfect over a short period of time and then lose its performance characteristics may be perfect for a casino deck, where decks are made for short periods of professional handling. But a finish that is less than 100% perfect when new (at least to a professional card dealer) but more long-lasting may be optimal for consumer decks, which tend to be used longer. Copag is a European manufacturer catering to a different market, where consumer expections as to details such as the size and design are somewhat different than in the American market. Like U.S. Playing Card Co., Copag has various brands for consumer and casino applications. U.S. Playing Card's KEM cards are very expensive plastic cards which do not wear out as quickly as paper cards.

-- Bob (Bob99) 14:54, 19 January 2006

Research has been done on the durability of different brands, even if some are from the same firm. check out http://www.homepokertourney.com/cards_review.htm. --165.230.44.185 21:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Countries

I currently am looking at a deck of cards that I was led to believe were Swedish but they have "MADE IN BELGIUM" printed on the Jokers and doing a Google search for <a href="http://wopc.co.uk/netherlands/trio.jpg">pictures</a> resulted in faces with identical styles.

The deck is a standard Anglo-American 52 card deck with three Jokers. The three Jokers have identical faces but only two have "MADE IN BELGIUM" printed on them. The court cards are much more elaborate than a traditional deck you can pick up in the States and the labels are not K, Q, J but H, V, B. The Aces are pictures of buildings, and I cannot identify the language the building names are written in.

I was curious to know if these types of playing cards should get a mention. The suits and order are identical, but running a few Google searches I can find many such decks. Does anyone know what these are? MrHen 16:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

They are almost certainly made by Carta Mundi, a Belgium-based card firm who are Europe's major producer of playing cards. AxS 14:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The language on those card is Dutch and both the buildings depicted are from Amsterdam. H, V and B mean Heer (Lord), Vrouwe (Lady) and Boer (Knave). These letters are common on Dutch cards and are occasionally used in Flanders aswell, though in Flanders we also often use H, D and B ... D being Dame (also Lady) or the french variant R, D, V ... Roi, Dame, Vassal. And, Yes, almost certainly made by Carta Mundi Fiji101 11:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright status of cards

All the scans of cards in this page (and others, see Image: King of hearts.jpg) are labeled as PD-- this isn't true, is it? Someone scanning the cards doesn't make it their work. I'd change this, but I'm not sure how to go about doing so, or what tag to change them to. --Szabo 00:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't vouch for the 52-card picture since I can't read the brand name, but the other photos are fine. The old cards are clearly old enough for any copyright to have expired, and even the Bicycle cards (my photo) are clear because card images were not copyrightable until the 1970s, and the images were published long before that. LDC 01:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Out of interest, who owns the copyright to the modern card design? Perhaps it is in the public domain, but claraifcation both here and in the article is welcomed. Ddast 20:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Card designs and prevention of cheating

Information on the design of the backs of playing cards in preventing cheating should be included in the article.

Simple back design, so that people can't systematically mark their cards. Because of a simple design, these markings would be easily seen.
White bordered back: this prevents bottom dealing, as people would more easily see it if it occurs.
Plastic: aside from the added durability compared to paper (and comparable to vinyl), the cards are not as easily marked or damaged, thus preventing the recognizability of dirty/marked/damaged cards.

--165.230.44.185 21:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Card materials

I understand the differences between paper and plastic or vinyl, but what about Plastic(100% Cellulose-Acetate)(KEM) vs. PVC(plastic)(Copag) vs. vinyl(Cheaper decks such as Bee, Bicycle, Aviator)? --165.230.44.185 21:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

KEMs and Copags just use different types of plastic. Bee, Bicycle, and Aviator aren't actually plastic, they're plastic coated paper, which doesn't last as long. Lord Bodak 03:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions about history

Do the historical sources indicate anything about which games were played? Have cards always been associated with gambling? Which social classes played cards? What did the church say about playing cards? 130.225.127.185 11:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo-American deck

I would prefer the expression anglo-american-french deck. As the history section behind the anglo-american deck section implies, the anglo-american deck is basically the deck developed mostly by the french with initials for court figures derived from their english language names. People were playing this deck in the french court even before there were any USA. Calling it the anglo-american deck means to most readers that this modern deck was invented by english-american people which is false. In most european languages (for instance, french, italian, spanish, portuguese, german, russian and scandinavian languages to mention those I know about) this deck is known simply as the french deck. Americans invented half of modern things, but as far as i know there were no americans involved in this development. Salvadorjo 20:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German

I just deleted ~~After the reunification a compromise deck was created, with French symbols, but German colors. Therefore, many "French" decks in Germany now have yellow or orange diamonds and green spades."~~. There are neither "compromise decks" nor decks with yellow diamonds in Germany.

The Deutscher Skatverband, [1], thinks otherwise. And please sign your posts. —Blotwell 03:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solitaire

i'm not sure the picture for MS solitaire is appropriate. it does not add any information or help to illustrate anything. for someone unfailiar with what solitaire is and what happens when you win, this is also misleading. suggest removal/replacement —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dylan2106 (talk • contribs) 08:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Bells or Balls?

The article says that one of the suits of Central European cards is "bells". In Czech cards they are called "kule", related to the word "koule" for a ball or sphere, and illustrated as orbs, like on the Hungarian pack shown in the image. Is "bells" a (recurring) typo here? If they are bells in some languages, it is certainly worth poiting out that they are balls in others. HairyDan 12:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No, these are bells. They are called Hawk Bells, being made in two halves to make a sphere. There are usually trefoil shaped holes in the bottom half and a small ball on a chain inside to make them chime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philebus (talk • contribs) 14:51, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bridge/Poker sizes question

Could anyone include something indicating information about common card sizes? You commonly (in english-speaking countries) see cards listed as either bridge or poker size -- what's the difference? Are there any other sizes commonly used, eg I sometimes see decks advertised as pinochle decks. AxS 14:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Concerning the common sizes, I just measured a pack of Bicycle brand poker cards. They are definitely 63 mm by 88 mm. Are we sure the most common size is 62 and not 63 mm? Is it possible the common width has changed over time? --Trakon 09:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The missing queen in Spanish pattern cards

The article seems to suggest that the queen was dropped from a set of Tarot suits. It was my understanding that the cards arrived in Europe with three male court cards, these were added to in a Milanese pack that introduced the queen (the first pack with a queen had a male and female of each cour rank) which then became a 56 card pack (to which trumps were added to make the tarot) that later dropped back to 52 cards, retaining the queen but dropping the cavalier. The queen was never a part of the Spannish pattern to have been dropped from it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philebus (talk • contribs) 14:46, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accessible Playing Cards

I have added a section on accessible (large-print, braille, etc.) playing cards though I'm by no means an expert. If you are familiar with braille playing cards please fill in details about presentations and suit markings used. I also did not include any information about domino-style tile cards which I have seen used by card players with cerebral palsy for playing standard card games since I have no idea how common their use is. bondolo 17:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 78-card sets

There is a company in the US somewhere that has produced a 78-card set (not including jokers), with two additional suits - crowns and anchors, so there are three suits in each colour. There is no mention of this in the article. I believe the reason for designing the set was to increase options for large numbers of players playing a game together. GBC (talk) 01:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)