Talk:Pharaoh Hound

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[edit] Need new image!

A new image is needed for this page. The current one does not show the breed in its best light. A better photo would show the dog stacked (in a show stance), have better lighting, and show a dog that doesn't have its tail tucked in (the article clearly states that isn't good breed type), or its ears flattened back (also bad type). If anyone has a good image that can be used please put it up. I can't find a source for a suitible (GNU liscensed) image, and don't know anyone who owns the breed. Pharaoh Hound 22:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That photo was taken by me, in Maltese countryside where pharaoh hounds are not bred for show standards 195.158.122.165 17:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The current image is contradictory to the article in many respects, and images that contradict their artcles are not acceptable. Pharaoh Hound 22:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
How does it contradict? It is an example of the dog as it is breed in it's country of origin for us in it's intended purpose of hunting rabbits. This should trump a breed standard, which in this casee was an arbitrary guide created by people with little knowledge of the breed—if I recall Block and company wrote the original standard based on three dogs they aquired in a fairly short period and without much at all about how the breed is breed in Malta. If Block had taken the time to learn from the Maltese, the standard would not be as it is today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.136.185 (talk • contribs)
Perhaps "contradict" wasn't the exact word I was looking for, so let me elaborate. What I meant was that the "appearance" section of this page gives the discription of "western" or show type dogs, which is the best known form of the Pharaoh, thus I belive it would be best to have an image in the infobox that reflects the breed's most common form. Though you make an interesting point about the differances between the two types and the history. I think that it would be very useful to have photos and discriptions of both types. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 22:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's OK if that's not a show quality dog, however we need a photo of the dog in a nicer pose (the current one looks like it's cowering). Pharaoh Hound 14:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Good I'll try to find one and get a good photo of it when I'm in the countryside 195.158.120.242 21:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot!!! Pharaoh Hound 21:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have exchanged the first photo for a better one, which I have already provided for the Pharaoh Hound article in the German Wikipedia, and added two more photos from my collection. --Jan Eduard 18:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sighthound status debate

This breed is not a sighthound. --Richard Hawkins 03:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.136.185 (talk • contribs)

Exactly what I wrote: The breed is not a sighthound; neither by its work which is scent hunting rabbits, nor by its FCI Group 5 status. So why is it included here? Verify its true status. Supply the reader with a description of its true field work, descriptions of which are freely available. Then draw your own conclusion. Do not continue to mythologise the true identity of breeds.--Richard Hawkins 20:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Trust me, I am one of the last to try to mythologize this breed. I was just curios about your basis for your statement. As to feild work, I have only read Peter Gatt's descriptions, which seem to be a combination of scent, sight and hearing. One thing to note, have you ever seen what happens when a Greyhound, whippet or Italian Greyhound in a park filled with off leash dogs of a variety of breeds doe when either another Greyhound, whippet, Italian Greyhound or Kelb tal-Fenek moves by withint 20 feet? They drop what they are doing (playing, sitting, etc.) and head straight for that dog for a sniff—they do not do this with all of the other dogs around them. This leads me to beleive there is something about sighthounds that makes them stand out to one another from other dogs, and that Kelb tal-Fenek have this trait. So, if sighthound recognize the Kelb tal-Fenek as sighthound, then I think there is something to it. Mind you, I understand this is anecdotal evidence, but if someone would devise a test we could test it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.136.185 (talk • contribs)

I respect Mr. Hawkins qualifications. However, as someone who has owned 3 Pharaoh hounds, has watched them lure course, seen them hunt in the field, and compared their gait and hunting style to other sight hounds (borzoi and ibizans among others), I have found no reason to believe that they should not be considered sight hounds. They may start prey with their scent but they definitely run it down. If they lose sight of prey in long grass, they will rear up on their back legs to relocate the prey as well as cast for scent. They run with the double suspension gallop. If you do not consider Pharaoh hounds as sighthounds, then we need to discuss your definition of a sighthound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.174.89.62 (talk • contribs)

Please see and read the discussion on the Sighthound page, you will find my reasons clearly given there why I do not consider scent hounds such as the Kelb to be sighthounds. Read the Kelb field work description http://www.kelb-tal-fenek.com/fieldwork.htm carefully, and you should understand that the Kelb is not a breed which takes its prey by its superior speed (an essential factor in the description of sighthounds) - NB the rabbit is not speed prey like the hare. The Ibizan/Podenco is not a sighthound either - please consult Miquel Elena Rossello - Ca Eivissenc: La Alternativa/Podenco Ibicenco: La Alternativa 1987, to understand why Spanish breed experts do not consider the Podenco to be a sighthound, in fact they are adamant that it is not. Why question or insult native breed experts? They, unlike the Maltese, do at least know what a true "national sighthound is" because they have the Galgo. Any dog will run its prey down given enough time and endurance. That does not mean it is a sighthound.--Richard Hawkins 00:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


When considering whether a hound should be categorized as "scent" or "sight", too often reference books and "experts" make the simplistic distinction that scenthounds pursue their prey with their noses while sighthounds pursue their prey exclusively by sight. Dogs have tremendous powers of scent. Why, therefore, expect any dog in the field not to use their nose? The difference between the sight and scent hound is how they pursue their prey once the scent is hot or the prey has broken cover. Conversations with other sighthound owners-breeders-enthusiasts as well as direct observation of sight and scent hound breeds in the field are the basis for these comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wietiesr (talk • contribs)


Richard, I think you go too far here. The Maltese do not call the Kelb-tal Fenek a sight hound, the designation comes from other sources (as did this mess about Pharaohs and Egypt). The Maltese also did not create the classification system(s) used for dogs, so do not blame them for the breed being called sighthound. I have read your thoughts on this subject of what is and is not a sighthound and I would like to understand your motivation here, what makes you so passionate about this subject?

Dear Pharaoh Hound, I was once given the Maltese Dictionary definition of a Kelb (I think either from Jan Scotland or Peter Gatt or both), being described as the nation's "greyhound". You are quite right, the Maltese are not in any way to be 'blamed' for any of "this" - see discussion on sighthound status - however the main point is that the Spanish do have a true classic sighthound, the Galgo, and they know the difference between their scent hounds such as the Podenco's, and their sighthound such as the Galgo. Which the Maltese may not know, because they do not have both. The Maltese environment, just as the Mallorcan islands, does not lend itself to the sighthound specific chase. Why am I so passionate about this - read my book :) Okay, I have researched hunting dogs and hunting lore, I was once deeply concerned with the background and history of coursing related to the judging of lure coursing. The truth above all is worth being passionate about. If people do not know the true history of their dog/breed they should not be pretending to inform others. North America is notorious in this respect. See for instance the current AKC Complete Dog Book, page 180 where the "Ibizan hound" is actually called a Galgo ... With reference to the comment above from 'Wietiesr', "sight" has become too misleading for many people trying to interpret the difference between sighthounds and scent hounds. Sighthounds take their prey by their superior speed, nothing more nothing less. The less people actually hunt with their dogs, the less they understand about the nature of their hounds/breeds. And so their status becomes indistinct.--Richard Hawkins 06:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Kelb is Maltese for dog or hound (there is no differentiation). I agree, the truth is important, but one must keep in mind that the truth is not always black and white (how easy, yet boring, life would be if it was). I think it is clear that the breed is not, nor has ever been, from Egypt, and would love it if people would finally embrace this truth. As to if the breed is a sight hound or sent houd, I can see the point that the Kelb tal Fenek (and the related breeds) is not that same as greyhounds and whippets. But, it is not like the scent hounds either. They are something inbetween. They do love to run and chase, so while not a sight hound in the same way as a grey hound, they should be allowed in coursing competition.

[edit] Links

Should this page have links to sites that propagate the "Egyptian myth?" The UK Club spins quite a few yarns with no source materail as usual.

[edit] Kelb tal Fenek page?

What happened to the Kelb tal Fenek page? Previously, the page was Kelb tal Fenek and Pharaoh Hound pointed to it, not it looks to be the other way. What happened?

Pharaoh Hound is the most common name for the breed. Kelb tal-Fenek is a redirect, I think. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) (The Game) 17:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I reverse an earlier comment. While Pharoah Hound (the person) and I may not see eye to eye on everything he/she does rock in my opinion. After looking over how many times people try to re-inject the whole egyptian charade and how many time PH has come to the rescue, I have to give props where props are due.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.136.185 (talk • contribs)

So will the page be re-written to reflect the dog's Maltese heritage? The fact it has been re-christened 'Pharaoh Hound' is annoying enough. The spanish dog is now known by its native name, the same should be true of the Maltese. What would it take to effect such a change? thanks Kalindoscopy (talk) 10:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Removed from Health section

I removed the following which was in the Health section for the following reasons: 1) it has nothing to do with the health of the breed, 2) it is loaded with tons of misinformation and flat-out opinion:

Phoenician Dog - National Dog of Malta [what the heck is a "Phoenician dog"?] In 1935, a burial tomb of a Pharaoh Hound was found in the great cemetery west of the Pyramid of Cheops at Giza with the following inscription recording the ritual burial ceremony, "The dog which was the guard of His Majesty, Abuwtiyuw is his name." [and the dog in this tomb has been proven to be a Pharaoh Hound how?] The Pharaoh Hound is the National Dog of Malta ( since 1979 ) and is referred to in Maltese as "Il kelb tal Fenek". Many translate this as "the dog of the rabbit". [breed was declared the national dog in 1974, not 1979; dog of the rabbit is a word-for-word translation, who translates word-for-word?] I contend that the word "Fenek" here refers to the Phoenicians ( Fenici in Maltese - Feniki ) -admittedly the Pharaaoh Hound is an excellent hunting dog, and was probably used for hunting rabbits by the Phoenicians The Phoenicians introduced the Pharaoh Hound to various places including Egypt, and most probably also to Spain - a land which the Phoenicians named tsepan, “rabbit land “, later translated by the Romans into eSpania. Dr Frank Portelli MD FRCS(Ed) Fellow Royal Society of Medicine St Philips Hospital Malta [1]

[edit] DNA research

On 22 November 2007 an anonymous edit modified the text in the "History" section, changing its meaning. It hasn't been reverted. Is this settled? --Daggerstab (talk) 13:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


Reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.119.11.33 (talk) 16:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)