Talk:Phantom time hypothesis
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This article was nominated for deletion on October 6, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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[edit] Older calenders
If the phantom time hypothesis were true, wouldn't the much older russian and Hindu calendars drop it ?
Not necessarily. If you need to know more about these topics I would recommend you to read "the lost keys" by Florin Diacu. i noticed that this article was appointed for deletion some time ago. I would like to state as a personal opinion that whoever proposed that should be ashamed of participating on this encyclopedia. Free knowledge means no inquisitions, and whoever thought that history is an exact science is dead wrong. Logic should come before temper, and any opinion on this matter should be allowed, even if the Wikipedia editors do not agree. What is most disappointing is that most of the editors never read the works they are giving opinions and providing information about. These are blind opinions. (Andres Guzman).
- The above comment was removed from the talk page in an edit. I have reinserted it as the user who removed the comment was not the one who added it. Apologies if this is a mistake. --Black Butterfly 19:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Illig Merger
This should probabley be merged with the data from the Heribert Illig entry, under this name. I think Illig's entry should be more about his life, ect. [unsigned]
- I've merged in the relevant information from Heribert Illig. There's a lot of it. Factitious 06:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] No original research
In the course of the AfD that I posted on this article, I've become more famliar with Wikipedia:Verifiability, which states:
| “ | The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research. [Their emphasis, not mine.] | ” |
This article also referenced Wikipedia:No original research, which states:
| “ | Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the topic of the article and to adhere to what those sources say. [Their emphasis, not mine.] | ” |
In other words, if the refutations are to stay, most of them need the {{fact}} template to insert [citation needed] as most of the refutations currently have no attributed source. Banaticus 01:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge proposal
Please see Talk:Heribert_Illig#Merge for a merger proposal of these two articles. -- Stbalbach 22:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some Clarification Would Be Nice
"...which suggests that the Early Middle Ages (more precisely, the period 614–911 AD) never occurred..." Look, maybe it's just because it's late at night. But this reads as if the theory is that we went from 613AD straight to 912AD. I'm not sure what this theory is all about, but I'm certain that it needs to be explained better. Sorry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.240.246.138 (talk) 23:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
- Nope. You've got it. That's the theory. Justin Bacon 18:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Er... the hypothesis is that the people who wrote the history books slipped in a few extra years that never really happened. For example, if in 1000 years time somebody claims that the Cold War and the War on Terror were two different front in the same war, and that they were both happening at the same time. That would be a phantom time hypothesis.
perfectblue (talk) 15:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Article is biased
I wonder if the author has read the book from Illig? Some "facts" stated here are not considering Illig's counterproposals. For example, the conspiracy was made between Constantine (Byzantine Empire), Otto (German-Roman Empire) and Pope. It is possible that these three have took the chance to modify history. The Muslim claendar, and other calendars do not match (Gregorian, Chinese, it is detailed in the book), these could have been matched later to "fit" to what we know. The main reasons are also stated, with proofs.
Starting critisism with the remark that it is not translated to English - it is ridiculous! So don't throw this theory out of the window too early. After all, Illig's writes: the science of history is based on the writing of history, which is a branch of literature (not exact translation). Abdulka 08:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. I came to this article a while ago, and it was rubbish. It still is, completely biased. The astronomical dates of the almagest have come under attack from those who actually understand it, not just historians. Robert newton and Fomenko especially. If their results prove something is that nobody can cite the almagest as ultimate proof. the archaeological proof is weak! Why do you think medievalists are killing themselves to try to explain the stagnation of the middle ages?! as to the conspiracy, Antony Grafton, who i take as an authority, has written that "Perhaps half of the legal documents we possess from Merovingian times, and perhaps two-thirds of all documents issued to all ecclesiastics before 1100 AD, are fakes." (Forgers and Critics pp. 24). according to Alfred Hiatt, who i consider another authority, "There is strong evidence that certain monasteries produced forged documents on a monumental scale, not only for their own benefit..." Why is it a conspiracy theory to search for responsible of a crime among the best candidates that the best scholars have already identified for us? who is the writer of this article? the inquisition? all the article does is give us what critics say: "They say Illig is wrong, so in conclusion he is wrong" or "astronomical dates contradicts him", citing this and that date without ever citing Illigs position or even better, Fomenko's position who has done a great amount of research on this matter. That is not an encyclopedia article, that is the opinion of a person which we would appreciate he/she posts on a blog and leave the article alone. The irony is that those who call revisionists "pseudo history" are using arguments just as weak as the revisionists. can we just have an article telling us what is going on rather than stating an opinion? shouldn't the choice be left to the reader? AG (NSU) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.202.215 (talk • contribs) 16:56, August 1, 2007
Editors should take into account that current wiki-regs (Specifically WP:NOR) determine that criticism must come from third party sources. This means that in order to say that there has been criticism of an hypothesis you must source it to third parties who are actively criticizing said hypothesis. For example, you cannot say that historians have criticized phantom times for its disregard for evidence by citing the evidence directly (violates WP:NOR), instead you must cite the historian directly using a source in which they offer said criticism. - perfectblue (talk) 11:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Critisism section
In case anybody thinks that I've deleted the criticism section, I haven't. I've divided the section on phantom time hypothesis into 4 sections each covering a single proponent, and have included critisism of each individual with the individual themselves. - perfectblue (talk) 17:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
- Seconed. This should be quite easily falsifiable: All it takes is one documented solar eclipse from before the contested era, and astronomers should be able to check if it occured in the "correct" year. Other option: Halley's comet appears every 76 years. It's appearances are well documented in many eras. Find one appearance before the middle ages and one after and see if the intervening period is a multiple of 76 years. There has to be an astronomer who has checked this to debunk this theory.--Mirage GSM (talk) 13:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
