Talk:Personal rapid transit/Archive 5

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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Parasitic Energy Consumption original research

The new sections added by BillJamesMN seem to be a lot of original research and uncited. I think this use of Parasitic Energy Consumption may be a new use for the term, amounting to a neologism. While I don't disagree with the research or the concept being identified as Parasitic Energy Consumption, I think they need to be independently vetted a little more before being included in WP and the wording needs to sound less salesy and are not verbatim quotes from the JPods marketing pitch. I would highly recommend that BillJamesMN apply his engineering knowledge to areas of WP that help WP more than they are intended to help his own project, like creating an article called Parasitic Energy Consumption. --JJLatWiki 19:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

BillJamesMN, I see that you've added references to support your edits, but you're using yourself as the your own source. That's called original research and is covered in WP:NOR. If you can't find reliable, independent references most of your changes need to be removed. --JJLatWiki 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

PEC is only one factor of the wider issue of energy efficiency. I propose the following--

Energy efficiency
The energy efficiency claimed by PRT proponents is based on two operational characteristics: low vehicle weight; elimination of unnecessary starting and stopping through direct origin to destination service.
  • Parastic Energy Consumption. Parastic Energy Consumption is a complicated way of defining the weight to be moved that is not people (or cargo). In order to achieve the lowest consumption of energy per passenger, it makes sense that the lighter the vehicle, the less energy consumed. As an example, for a PRT vehicle with a capacity of four persons and weighing 882 lbs. (400 kg),
(reference:
http://www.atsltd.co.uk/media/papers/docs/clean_air_paper.doc
Lowson, M.V., "A New Approach to Sustainable Transport Systems," 2004)
the parasitic weight is 220.5 lbs. per seat. By comparison, a Siemens SD600A light rail car of the type used by Portland's Tri-Met agency has a weight of 109,000 lbs.; with 72 seats and a standing capacity of 261 passengers, the parasitic weight is 1,513 or 417 lbs., respectively.
(reference:
http://www.lightrail.com/carspecpages/sd600.htm
Tri-Met SD600A specifications page, LightRail.com, 2001)
  • Elimination of unnecessary starting and stopping. It takes less energy to maintain a steady speed, as evidenced by hybrid vehicles that recapture at time of deceleration t̪the energy consumed by acceleration.
The combination of parasitic weight and starting and stopping means that rail transit consumes 3,268 BTU per passenger mile,
(reference:
http://cta.ornl.gov/cta/Publications/Reports/TEDB_Edition24_ORNL_6973.pdf
USDOT, "Transportation Energy Databook," 24th Edition, Ch. 2, p.13)
whereas ATS Ltd. estimates its ULTra PRT will consume .55 MJ (megajoule) per passenger km (839 BTU per passenger mile).
(reference: Lowson, M.V.)
By comparison, buses consume 4,127 BTU and automobiles consume 3,581 BTU (reference: USDOT).

--Mr Grant 00:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I still see no citation that describes "parasitic energy consumption". I see references to specifications that support the research, but no such independent research. Are there any transit engineering books that describe parasitic energy consumption? Preferably peer-reviewed books. I personally don't think the neologistic term would withstand engineering scrutiny because it seems to be used here only in reference to weight or mass. Mass alone isn't a parasite. A parasitic loss usually comes from such things as rivots that serve no aerodynamic purpose, or the viscosity of oil in an engine that retards the motion of moving parts, or drag of a wheel on a surface. It seems the concept being described as the lost energy used to accelerate the heavier vehicle involves the concept in physics known as conservation of energy or mass or momentum (I'm not sure which). Regardless, without a qualified citation (multiple and independant of JPods), the entire section needs to be removed. A sign of probable original research is a phrase like, "it makes sense that", because what makes sense to you doesn't make it so and it may not make the same sense to others. --JJLatWiki 23:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I propose something far shorter:
Energy efficiency
The energy efficiency advantage claimed by PRT proponents is based on two operational characteristics: low vehicle to payload weight ratio; and the elimination of intermediate starting and stopping through point-to-point service.[citation needed] --JJLatWiki 23:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment, and I've expanded on your changes somewhat. See new section at the bottom of this talk page for what I did. ATren 00:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Unimodal (Skytran) & NASA

"The beginnings of a prototype are underway. It has a U.S. Department of Transportation grant at the University of Montana and is working with NASA's National Center for Advanced Manufacturing in New Orleans to develop the vehicles."........... Is there a link to this info?...Avidor 21:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Question About Conflict of Interest Concerning David Gow (Mr Grant)

David Gow maintains several websites, blogs that promote Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) and moderates a Seattle PRT web forum. All this activity alone constitutes a conflict of interest, but I would like to know if David Gow (Mr Grant) has received payment for promoting PRT and if so, who has paid him...Avidor 18:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

First: I have no clue whether or not he has been paid; second: it is entirely irrelevant here because he has not added anything advertorial or controversial to the article; third: if you insist on knowing whether Gow was paid, you should also answer whether you've ever been paid for your anti-PRT campaign - like, for example, any articles or Roadkill Bill works you've created that are anti-PRT in nature. Your presence on these articles has been much more significant and controversial than Gow's, so if you've made any money off your anti-PRT campaign then that would be much more of a COI than anything you can accuse of Gow. ATren 19:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Once again we see Avidor attack a person because his attacks on the technology have been shown to be without foundation. As Atren notes, I may have a pro-PRT presence online, but it is only COI if my Wikipedia edits have a COI result. Avidor seems to think expertise or opinion necessarily takes away one's ability to write objectively or neutrally.

As for whether I receive payment for my work, for the time being I am going to neither confirm nor deny anything, one way or another. The reason? I wish to be amused by the talking points and conspiracy theories Avidor will produce in the coming days/weeks/months/years/eras, which I am sure are being concocted even as I write this. After all, one of my blogs is Avidor Humor, and I always need material. --Mr Grant 19:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, I ask respectfully; Have you, Mr Grant (David Gow) received payment for promoting PRT and if so, who has paid you?
The policy {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#What_is_a_conflict_of_interest.3F]:
If you fit either of these descriptions:
you are receiving monetary or other benefits or considerations to edit Wikipedia as a representative of an organization (whether directly as an employee or contractor of that organization, or indirectly as an employee or contractor of a firm hired by that organization for public relations purposes); or, you expect to derive monetary or other benefits or considerations from editing Wikipedia; for example, by being the owner, officer or other stakeholder of a company or other organisation about which you are writing;
then we very strongly encourage you to avoid editing Wikipedia in areas where there is a conflict of interest that would make your edits non-neutral (biased). Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy states that all articles must represent views fairly and without bias, and conflicts of interest do significantly and negatively affect Wikipedia's ability to fulfill this requirement. If your financially-motivated edits would be non-neutral, do not post them.
And again, I ask you respectfully, which of Mr. Grant's edits to the PRT article do you consider to be problematic? ATren 20:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
And I, just as respectfully, respond to you, Ned Luddington (Ken Avidor), that I am in compliance with the policy you have quoted. I'll trust you on quoting them accurately. Love ya, don't change. Mmmmmmmwah. --Mr Grant 21:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There also seems to be an obvious conflict of interest regarding owner of a start-up PRT company BillJamesMN editing the PRT page and it seems other editors were well aware of it [1]...Avidor 21:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have a problem, raise it at the COI noticeboard. I think you know where it is... ATren 21:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey Nedken: I agree with you that BillJamesMN may have appearance of a COI. That is why I have proposed a remedy I hope will improve the article. How would you like to improve the article? --Mr Grant 22:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
One last time; Are you paid to promote PRT?...Avidor 01:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
One last time: which edits are you concerned about? Because if he's not making promotional edits, then the COI question is moot! ATren 01:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Are you paid to oppose it? Because it's like a full-time job for you. --Mr Grant 02:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
With the exception of a comic about PRT back in 2003 for which I received $40, no... Now, you can answer my question; Have you been paid to promote PRT?...Avidor 04:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
You're not the boss of me. And at 01:41 you promised that would be the last time you asked. --Mr Grant 05:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
And can you answer my question: which edits do you consider PRT "promotion"? Because unless there is evidence of actual PRT promotion on behalf of Mr Grant, the COI charge is completely irrelevant. Are you going to provide diffs to support your argument? ATren 04:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
So that's it? You refuse to provide the diffs? ATren 13:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It would take a more time than I have... I agree with the admin--"If he (Gow) wants to avoid all potential for future misunderstanding he can confine himself to the article talk page."Avidor 15:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hold the phone! You did the experiment without doing the research first? You went to battle without knowing the enemy's position? You asked a question in court without already knowing the answer? You expect me to believe that, with all the time you spend trawling the PRT waters, you have no actual evidence of my COI? This was just a fishing expedition!!! Is there a Wikipedia policy against time-wasting?
And staying on the talk page "to avoid all potential for future misunderstanding" amounts to a gag order -- because you are the one who will be doing the misunderstanding. So no way. I am educated in performing neutral, competent policy & program analysis, I have a sheepskin that says so. I perform neutral, competent policy & program analysis every day. How about you? FORTY DOLLARS???!!! --Mr Grant 16:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The admin also clearly states that Mr Grant's edit history is "all helpful and straightforward contribution." And, judging by your "I don't have time" excuse, it's quite clear that she's absolutely right - there is nothing on which to base a COI complaint. As Mr Grant states above, this appears to be little more than a fishing expedition.
Furthermore, I question why you believe that Gow has received money to promote PRT - do you have any evidence to support this? Once again, that seems to be a completely unfounded insinuation, made with the intent to falsely imply impropriety on Gow's part. To paraphrase the great Jackie Gleason: "Ad homina homina hominem".
So as far as I'm concerned, Mr Grant has proven himself to be a model editor on these pages, and he can go ahead and continue editing without reservation. ATren 17:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Arizona Republic Article About Skytran Quotes Transportation Professional

There's nothing new about the concept, which some sources date to the 1930s. Companies have been tinkering with SkyTran-like ideas for years. But although the company's literature speaks of SkyTran in the present tense, the idea has yet to get off the ground, literally.Mike James, Mesa's senior transportation planner, said SkyTran "is an idea on the Internet, but that's about the only place it exists."Only now, Spellman said, is the company building two prototype vehicles and some sections of rail. It hopes to put enough actual equipment together to erect a test loop of about 1,000 yards. Spellman said Williams Gateway would be an ideal location for the first test run. James said that probably won't happen."We're really focusing in on what the federal government would call proven technologies," James said. And as far as personal transportation, he said, "We as a city already have a good personal transportation system in our road network."[2]...Avidor 13:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, a transportation professional who works for the Mesa Transportation Division. In earlier times you would call it the Road Department. I thought you opposed all road warriors, now you're looking to them to support your arguments? Doesn't all that road work take funding away from light rail? It's in the same department! --Mr Grant 16:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Is SkyTran's Jerry Spelllman [3] more credible?Avidor 23:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a point in posting links to these news articles and blog postings? Unless you have a specific problem with the article that you wish to discuss, please cease posting links like this. Wikipedia is not a blog, nor is it a soapbox. If you have a specific problem with the article, raise it here; posting every random Internet posting you find on PRT is not helpful, and unless it concerns something specific in the article, is nothing but a disruption and likely a WP:POINT violation. ATren 00:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I have contacted Mr. Spellman and he won't give me any information about his claim that Skytran has a contract with US DOT. Maybe someone else can ask him to verify his claim?.... here's his e-mail: j.spellman@skytran.net ...Avidor 10:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you ask Larry Fabian to ask Spellman? --Mr Grant 16:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge the "Ridership and Operating cost" section into the "Energy Efficiency" section?

It seems that the section on "parasitic energy" repeats some of the same points as the "Ridership and Operating Cost" section. It alludes to the 25% occupancy of PRT, which is expanded upon below in the ridership section. Also, it seems that the "Ridership" section as written fits nicely into the energy section.

I suggest a third item in the "energy efficiency" section: load factor is independent of service level. This basically means that PRT can offer 24x7 service without sacrificing load factor - load factor is the average occupancy compared to max occupancy and is related to parasitic energy in the sense that the greater the load factor, the less parasitic energy consumption. Load factor has a theoretical lower bound of 12.5% for PRT because vehicles only move empty to redistribute vehicles, and the absolute worst case is 50% empty vehicle movement (the case where every trip is a full round trip back to the originating station, with the return trip empty).

For scheduled transit, load factor is always at odds with service level, and there is no theoretical lower bound on load factor as there is with PRT. Buses and trains may achieve PRT-like average load factors, but only by cutting back service during off hours. Consider the extreme example of trying to provide ubiquitous service with buses - this would mean that buses would run on a 6-minute schedule all the time, 24x7, including weekends and holidays. This would come close to the PRT service level (though 3 minute waits are still longer than PRT wait times), but it would drive the load factor down to near zero and make the parasitic energy usage skyrocket. Put another way: buses would be riding around almost empty all the time. A big aspect of transit planning and operations is trying to balance these competing needs, and it's a no-win situation because cutting back service to reduce parasitic energy alienates potential riders, which in turn drives down the load factor even further.

So, it's a fundamental tradeoff between cost and service level for scheduled transit modes. PRT has no such tradeoff - load factor is independent of service level and thus can provide the same level of service 24x7 with no parasitic energy implications.

Would anyone object if I merged these two sections by adding this third bullet item to the energy efficiency section?

ATren 13:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge away. Do you recall a thread here about mode load factor? Maybe it was in Yahoo Groups. The only thing I could find that had loads for various modes was this mention in a Brookings paper (pp. 25-26). Skeptics (not you-know-who) replied to the effect that 'oh, those numbers must be old,' but if I remember correctly they could not provide better/newer references.--Mr Grant 17:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This Article Needs a MAJOR Overhaul

 The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.(December 2007)
Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.

Too much advocacy, weasel words that support original research withoput citations... it's a mess written by promoters with tremendous conflicts of interest.

"Advocacy. Here's an example: wp:Personal rapid transit. This is a cool technology, but right now it does not really exist. The article portrays this wonderful system of widescale urban transit, but the only system currently being built is in an airport car park. The article describes a concept which is not just untested, right now there's nobody in power actually proposing it. But there are some people who like to use the chimaera of PRT to undermine funding for proven modes like light rail. Light rail, trams, is known to work. It's also pretty cheap as the routes tend to run over existing roads or old rail track beds. It can be built quickly because the hardware is stock, due to its use in many cites throughout Europe. PRT faces formidable political obstacles, but even that statement has been quietly edited out of the article by the PRT fans who "own" it. Instead of noting the formidable obstacles, we now have a PRT advocate's quote that the only barriers are political. No, they aren't. The barriers are technical, political and societal. Surveys on cycling all say that more people would cycle if only there were more cyclepaths; built the cyclepaths and mostr of those who said they would cycle if only they were there, still don't cycle. Same with PRT, I would bet. Whatever kind of public transport infrastructure you build, you will not get many people out of their cars, because people love their cars. All cyclists know this. We also have an article on UniModal, or SkyTran, a system which has no existence at all outside its developer's head. It's right up there with the Moller Skycar. So what, you say? So the advocates for this mode, and the people pitching for money to build a test track for SkyTran, seem to me to be using Wikipedia to promote their baby."...[4].

Personal Rapid Transit is like Intelligent Design - it's used mainly as a stalkiing horse to teach the controversy about a controversy that doesn't exist (except on PRT sites and Wikipedia) that LRT is expensive and inefficient. This article fails to mention that nearly every PRT site attacks LRT. This article fails to mention that several PRT crusaders are opponents of LRT. Emory Bundy was a PRT promoter of a defunct PRT project called Pathfinder.

PRT has little or no support among transit groups or transportation professionals. Thi article refers mainly to sites that promote PRT... many are dead sites like Skyloop.

Here's a scan from page # 221 from the book "Transportation for Livable Cities" by Professor Vukan Vuchic of the Univ. of Pennsylvania... the professor gives PRT only one paragraph saying PRT is "imaginary" and "infeasible"

PRT was heavily promoted in the media 2003-2005 in Minnesota. Although PRT had some support among Democrats, it was mostly supported by right-wing, anti-transit, pro-highway Republicans and a corrupt Green Party elected official who was convicted of taking bribes from a Republican developer. Here is a video that gives a glimpse into what was going on back then...Avidor 21:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing actionable here. If you have a complaint, take it to RFC. ATren 22:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
You can do that, but There needs to be a discussion here before you remove the NPOV....Avidor 00:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Avidor, with all due respect, your persistent claims that PRT is only a "stalking horse" used to bash Light Rail Transit is completely unfounded. The people who really care about PRT, the people who develop it, the people who promote it are people who care about transit. Look, for example, at the Minneapolis example. The PRT system that was proposed for Minneapolis was designed to complement and add to the functionality of the light rail transit. It had integrated multimodal stations, so that LRT could transport large numbers of people into Minneapolis, who could then circulate around the city. In what way does that suggest it is only used to make LRT look bad? It's made to HELP LRT!
Now you say PRT has little support among "transit professionals." I assume you are talking about the people who make transit in the status quo. They have a lot to LOSE from PRT. Traditional transit systems are made by a small oligarchy of companies that often have some shady practices. They get billions and billions of dollars of government money, no doubt because of the millions of dollars they spend lobbying and contributing to political campaigns. They have a lot invested in the status quo. Were PRT to be widely implemented, they have a lot to lose.
You persistently insist that PRT is a pipedream, that it is unworkable, that it is untested. You ignore the fact that there are working prototypes. You ignore the fact that there are computer models that show it would work on a larger scale. You ignore the fact that reputable organizations have looked at PRT and found that it could be viable. You ignore the fact that PRT relies almost exclusively on proven transit technologies.
Your only opposition to PRT is because it is so widely supported---including by people you don't like. You obviously have the mantra that "the friend of my enemy is my enemy." Well, if some Republican or corrupt official you don't like supported world peace, would you be against that too?
Your main proposition--that PRT is used to prevent LRT from being built--is completely and verifiably false. It doesn't it even make sense. I have never heard a genuine PRT advocate say "we should not build any transit because we want to wait until PRT is ready." On the contrary, I've heard genuine PRT advocates say we SHOULD build light rail with PRT to complement it, or that we should build PRT instead of light rail only if possible now, or that we should build transit while researching PRT for the future.
You make it sound like PRT is a conspiracy by the auto industry and that elected officials are in their pockets. Well, I say follow the money. The PRT industry and the genuine PRT advocates get no money from the auto industry. Although they occassionally get people to present their ideas to the legislature, they have been unsuccessful in getting ANY public money. On the contrary, the megacorporations and transnational conglomerates that push oil, autos, and traditional transit spend MILLIONS upon MILLIONS on lobbyists, campaign contributions, and advertising to prevent transit innovation.
What I'm saying is that your concern about why this article needs a "major overhaul" is based upon you imputing bad faith to the thousands of people who generally hold hope that PRT promises a better future for us and our children. I just ask you to assume good faith. Don't overlook the reality of PRT because of your childish grudge against a few of its past supporters.
What you call unsupported advocacy in this article is really just reality. This article is well supported. If anything, it carefully understates the potential of PRT. There are no "conflicts of interest"--the people who have contributed to this article don't stand to make money from PRT. Rather, we're just grassroots enthusiasts who want to end auto dependency, sprawl, foreign oil dependency, and all the other problems that our current transportation strategy has gotten us.--Happyshifter (talk) 00:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Vuchic description

Okay, Atren and I are in a bit of a disagreement over the description of Vulkan Vuchic. Atren is saying that he is "a proponent of traditional forms of transit". The problem I have is that "traditional forms of transit" is a rather vague term. Plus, "traditional" could also mean automobiles, couldn't it? But he certainly is not a proponent of automobile-friendly developments...

I'm shooting for something like "alternatives to automobile transit". PerryPlanet 23:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Oops, we both added a comment at the same time. :-) See my rationale below. I have a problem with the word "alternative" because that often implies stuff like monorail and maglev, which Vuchic opposes; and anyway, Vuchic may promote trains and buses but he doesn't necessarily oppose cars. See my full discussion below. ATren 23:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Vukan Vuchic is the UPS Foundation Professor of Transportation Engineering Department of Electrical and Systems Engineering School of Engineering and Applied Science Professor of City and Regional Planning University of Pennsylvania[5] Professor Vuchic's peer-reviewed articles and books carry more weight than the the self-published citations in this article...Avidor 23:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Vuchic: proponent of "traditional forms of transit" vs "alternatives to automobile"

PerryPlanet, with respect to what Vuchic is a proponent of, I reverted back to "traditional forms of transit" for several reasons:

  1. "traditional" covers trains, buses, pedestrians, and bicycles - which corresponds pretty much exactly to Vuchic's views.
  2. Vuchic has opposed many newer transit systems that might be considered "alternative", like monorail, PRT, and maglev. In fact, the word "alternative", when applied to transit, generally applies more to these newer, more exotic modes, and not to more establish forms like trains and buses. So "alternative" is somewhat misleading, I think.
  3. Vuchic lists as one of his research topics "Highway Transportation: Design of highways and streets." [6] So "alternatives to cars" does not seem to reflect his full viewpoint.

For these reasons, I've reverted back to "traditional forms". But I've opened up this discussion in case anyone else wants to chime in. I think we can come to some sort of agreement - it's a minor point. ATren 23:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

How about "established alternatives to single-occupant vehicle transit"? PerryPlanet 23:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
But that excludes only bicycles. :-) Seriously, how about "existing transit modes like buses and trains"? I really don't think it's appropriate to imply he's opposed to cars when he's done research on highways and traffic patterns. Of course, I haven't studied his entire body of research, so my impression that he doesn't vigorously oppose highways could be incorrect... ATren 23:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Instead of speculating what Vuchic has written, you should go to the library and read at least one of his books....Here's a list[7] and Here's what he has to say about PRT....Avidor 23:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Just saying "buses and trains" leaves out bicyclists, pedestrians, carpoolers, and other modes of transit Vuchic has advocated for. Perhaps we don't need a description at all? I mean, is it really necessary? Why not just leave it at "Professor of Transportation Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania"? PerryPlanet 23:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with PerryPlanet. Professor Vuchic should be refered to as a "Professor of Transportation Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania"... I have read Vuchic's "Transportation for Livable Cities"... The way this article describes Vuchic as a mere "proponent" is unjustified and demeaning and further evidence of the widespread POV-pushing in this article...Avidor 00:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The reason we identify Vuchic's affiliations is because others have insisted that every mention of a PRT researcher in the article must be qualified by "PRT proponent". If we must qualify every statement by a PRT researcher, we should also qualify Vuchic's affiliations - and he has been involved intimately with light rail for over 3 decades. In fact, he was one of the first to publicly use the term "light rail" and has written many papers in support of it. Vuchic is no less a proponent of light rail than Anderson is a proponent of PRT. I'd be fine removing the Vuchic affiliation if we also remove all pro-PRT qualifications as well. ATren 00:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Vuchic is a proponent of light rail, no one is saying he isn't, but it is a bit misleading to make that his affiliation as he is also a proponent of bus transit, metro systems, carpooling, bicycling, and walking -- really, a vast array of transportation modes.
I suppose removing the pro-PRT qualifications would be fine with me. I don't see a problem with doing so, at least none yet. PerryPlanet 00:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a teach the controversy argument. Professor Vuchic's books and articles are peer-reviewed in the field of transportation engineering....Anderson and Schneider are not. To suggest that Anderson and Schneider are equal to Professor Vuchic is exactly the same "teach the controversy" argument used by proponents of Intelligent Design who cite "experts" who publish in non-peer-reviewed literature....Avidor 00:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

POV tag

Avidor, you have now applied the POV tag 3 times without specifying a single actionable complaint about the article. Please list specific complaints or I will remove the tag. ATren 01:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I did thatAvidor 01:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing actionable there - everything you mention there is either unsourced opinion or already in the article (see the section on Vuchic's quote). I'm not going to play this game again. I've opened up an AN/I thread. ATren 01:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, let me address your above statement, one by one:

  • JzG's off-Wiki complaint - yes, JzG believes PRT is infeasible, and it is his right to express that, but JzG's opinion is irrelevant to this article. I might also add that JzG expressed two specific concerns in his off-Wiki complaint, and I have addressed both of them: (1) the EDICT paragraph is now quoted directly from the EDICT report, and the "only barriers are political" line is no longer there, and (2) the "formidable obstacles" paragraph is back in the article - I don't know who removed it, but I never said it didn't belong (though I did have WP:WEIGHT concerns when it was in the opening section - the article was not significant enough to get such treatment). So as far as I can tell, JzG's specific concerns have been addressed.
  • "Personal Rapid Transit is like Intelligent Design - it's used mainly as a stalkiing horse..." - you have been making this statement for almost two years, but have never provided a reliable source for it - if you provide a source, then it will be added; otherwise it doesn't belong there. I realize that you believe in this strongly, but until you have actual sources to back up your claims, they cannot be added. I'd also add that Intelligent Design doesn't have a commercial installation being built as we speak - your comparison of a real working technology to a politically charged pseudo-science is completely unsupportable.
  • "PRT has little or no support among transit groups or transportation professionals. This article refers mainly to sites that promote PRT... many are dead sites like Skyloop." - Again, this is your opinion, and is largely unsupportable. Many transportation professionals have studied PRT, and some have even been involved in projects that resulted in prototypes. Currently in Europe, there are at least two major projects involving many transit professionals, and many other smaller efforts. Furthermore, with the notable exception of Vuchic and a very few others, there has been very little direct criticism of PRT by transportation professionals. Which brings us to...
  • "Here's a scan from page # 221 from the book "Transportation for Livable Cities" by Professor Vukan Vuchic..." - and you will note that Vuchic's critism is plainly stated in the article, so what's the problem? I fail to see why you keep bringing this up, when Vuchic's quote is in the article and has been there since the beginning!
  • "Although PRT had some support among Democrats, it was mostly supported by right-wing, anti-transit, pro-highway Republicans and a corrupt Green Party elected official who was convicted of taking bribes from a Republican developer. Here is a video that gives a glimpse into what was going on back then..." - First, where are the sources? Second, PRT has been a topic of research for decades before it became a Minneapolis political topic, and it continues to be a hot topic in parts of Europe and Asia even as the Minneapolis political battles have died down. The point is this: it may be very important to you and the people of Minneapolis that a few local politicians supported PRT, but what is the relevance to the rest of the world? Answer: almost nothing. You continue to try to make this all about Minneapolis politics, but Minneapolis is just a small, insignificant piece of PRT history. So even if your allegations were supportable in reliable sources, it's seriously debatable whether it would even belong in an article about PRT in general.

So, I'll repeat what I said earlier: I see nothing actionable in your complaint, and unless you provide specific, actionable complaints, I will remove the POV tag tomorrow.

ATren 03:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Skyloop isn't dead? The Skyloop website hasn't posted anything since 2001....Your denial of facts your endless Wikipedia:WikiLawyering is tedious.....but, that's the idea, isn't it?...Avidor 03:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Skyloop was a proposal that was rejected. The website is still there, so there is a link to it. The only mention of the proposal is in the criticism section, where the rejection of the proposal is discussed in some detail. What are you suggesting we do here, remove the criticism? I doubt you want that, so I fail to see what the problem is. Please tell us specifically what you want done here.
And might I assume by virtue of the fact that you didn't respond to any of my other points, that you do not contest anything anything else? If you do disagree with something else in my above analysis, then please present your case here, with specifics; otherwise I will remove the tag until you can present actionable complaints. ATren 04:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Still waiting for a response here. Per WP:NPOVD, when you add the POV tag to an article, it is your responsibility to provide specific actionable items here on the talk page. In the discussion above, we appear to have narrowed the problem down to Skyloop, but I still do not know what you want done with Skyloop. Frankly, Skyloop is barely mentioned in the article (and certainly not in a positive POV light), so to tag the entire article POV just on the basis of one mention and one external link - that seems excessive. So if you do not respond to this request and provide more details, I will remove the tag later today. ATren 13:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
To list Skyloop (and other rejected (and dubious PRT projects such as Skytran and JPods) as a "proposal" or "pilot" without also mentioning that it was rejected in 2001 would be same as listing the Titanic in an article about ocean liners without mentioning that it sank in 1912. The same is true for the other "proposals" except for ULTra which is proposed to be an airport "people mover", not the fine-grain, high capacity PRT system described elsewhere in this article. The main POV problem with this article is that the claims that PRT is competing against conventional transit modes such as LRT... to date, that is not true and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball WP:NOT#CRYSTALBALL...Avidor 14:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll address each of these separately:
  • I've qualified the Skyloop link as you requested
  • JPods and Skytran have both received media coverage. Skytran, we've already dealt with, extensively - if you want to revisit that, I suggest you go to arbcom as Radiant suggests. JPods was the subject of a Star-Tribune article and claims to have a letter of intent for future development. I think a single external link to a system that has received media coverage is fine and does not violate POV.
  • "ULTra which is proposed to be an airport "people mover", not the fine-grain, high capacity PRT system described elsewhere in this article." - see the EDICT report, which was an extensive study of PRT by transportation professionals for use in cities. ULTra is certainly targeted for cities, even if the first application is in an airport. This complaint is without merit.
  • "The main POV problem with this article is that the claims that PRT is competing against conventional transit modes such as LRT... to date, that is not true and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball WP:NOT#CRYSTALBALL..." - PRT is being considered as an option in several cities in the US and Europe. You know this, because you've written letters-to-the-editors to newspapers in many of those cities. I would estimate that PRT has been raised as an alternative in at least 10 cities - and that's just the ones I've heard about. And these are more than just casual mentions - PRT is a very serious part of the discussion in these cities. If you don't consider this "competing against LRT", then what term would you use? Crystal ball certainly does not apply here. Now, if the article said "PRT will be built in cities", I would agree that that is inappropriate, but nowhere does it say that. It properly documents the current state - that PRT is being considered but has not yet been built.
So as far as I can tell, the single actionable item here is the Skyloop link, which I've now modified. JPods now seems notable enough for a single external link, and the Skytran debate has been rehashed many times here - regardless of your feelings, consensus is that Skytran is notable enough for inclusion, and if you want to revisit that, you should take it to dispute resolution or arbcom. None of the other complaints have merit, as there are reliable sources that directly oppose your position.
Based on this, I am now removing the POV tag. If you have other actionable complaints, feel free to list them here, but please do not edit war on the POV tag. ATren 15:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I will not "debate" with ATren who has declared on his user page to defend this article against critics of PRT. ATren needs step back from this article WP:OWN. I will not discuss anything with someone who has accused me of fraud[8] which is a crime. Ironic since 2 of the biggest promoters of PRT in Minnesota are convicted criminals... I await arbitration....Avidor 15:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Definition of scam: A fraudulent business scheme. You seem to have no problem with using the word scam to describe PRT and its proponents. Are you implying that everyone who has ever researched PRT is a criminal? Anyway, I removed the word "fraudulent" yesterday as soon as someone questioned it. As for WP:OWN: why would I spend all this time on the talk page if I had ownership issues? Very little of this article was actually written by me. Furthermore, this particular debate is about the PRT article, not me. If you have a problem with me, file an RfC or arbcom case. ATren 16:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Parasitic Energy Consumption" --> "load factor"

In the Energy efficiency section, JJLatWiki removed much of the verbiage about "parasitic energy consumption" and left a small unsourced stub about the rationale for calculations that project reduced PRT energy consumption. This, I believe, was an improvement overall, since "parasitic energy consumption" seems to be an obscure term - but we still needed a citation for the claim.

So I did some digging and I found a source (an Anderson JAT paper) that provided a more reliable rationale for reduced energy consumption: reduced load factor. Load factor is not a neologism, and from what I can tell it is a common term in transit theory. Interestingly, load factor seems to be very much related to the concept of "parasitic energy consumption" - both indicate the percentage of energy that is consumed doing real work (i.e. moving passengers). So load factor actually works pretty well here.

After that, merging the "ridership and operating costs" section into this section made sense. The "ridership" section also deals with load factor, describing why PRT load factor would be higher than scheduled transit load factors, even for full 24x7 service. So I merged that section into the energy efficiency section.

I believe this is an overall improvement, as the "ridership" section always seemed to be out of place, tacked onto the end as it was. Note I added almost nothing in this series of edits, just moved some stuff around. ATren 01:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ATren. "Load factor" seems to be a good transportation term used most in the airline industry. Probably because of all passenger transport modes, the airline industry is most competitive, so they actually care about such things. Load factor is definitely appropriate when discussing cost efficiency and probably energy efficiency. I don't think "load factor" is the same concept that "parasitic energy consumption" is attempting to portray. Load factor deals exclusively with available seats without regard for how much the vehicle weighs. Obviously the weight can impact the available seats, but not in a way that correlates "LF" to "PEC". I hope BillJamesMN understands that I think his theory is sound and valid, but until other people start working on and publishing research on the theory, it really doesn't belong in Wikipedia. --JJLatWiki 15:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Another PRT Company Goes Down

Besides having their own PRT product, Frog/2getthere provided the guidance system and platform for British PRT ULTra in 2001[9][10]...Avidor 22:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

...and it was replaced in 2003. But didn't the PRT Skeptic write in 2005 that FROG is not PRT [11], ULTra looks like FROG[12], and therefore ULTra is not PRT[13]? Discuss. --Mr Grant 05:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The PRT promoters who wrote this article are always making excuses for every failure of every PRT "system". FROG is just the latest of many... which is why the Light Rail Now Cyberspace article isn't allowed to bring reality to this article. Incidentally, did somebody from the Frog Company anonymously edit the Wikipedia PRT page? [14]...Avidor 13:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent PB-244854 edits by BillJamesMN

I have been removing the recent edits by BillJamesMN in regards to the 1974 PRT Technology Assessment known as PB-244854. BillJamesMN has broadly interpretted this document as a "study" that was designed to find a solution to what he calls the "oil crisis" and that the conclusion of the study was that PRT is the solution. BillJamesMN has inflated the PB into "the blueprint" for PRT development and Morgantown was "the execution" of that document, even though constuction of the Morgantown PRT preceded the congressional letter requesting the assessment. --JJLatWiki (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

In his most recent edit here, he quotes from the PB and assigns meaning to the quote: The report accurately identified past innovation failures and the future of PRT for the next 37 years, "UMTA's R&D programs [US DOT Urban Mass Transit Administration] … have neglected near-term … simpler approaches to correct transit problems." The full quote (at least the closest I could find in the PB) goes: It is the opinion of the panel that UMTA's present approach neglects the near term need of local communities, and that concentrating solely on the small vehicle GRT type commonly called "HPPRT" will unnecessarily delay putting automated systems into use. The quote from the assessment panel, and based on the rest of the report, implies that the UMTA should spend more money on larger vehicle designs of 15+ passengers since that technology is more mature and better able to satisfy the near-term needs of local communities than the small vehicle designs. There is a lot of verbiage in the assessment that is decidedly negative against PRT. And most positive comments about PRT are prefaces with the typical "proponents of PRT" and "PRT advocates". --JJLatWiki (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

In short, PB-244854 adds nothing of significance to the PRT discussion, especially when it's added in a manner that carries the editor's POV of the meaning. --JJLatWiki (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


Author James Howard Kunstler on PRT

Author James Howard Kunstler talks about Personal Rapid Transit-[15]...Avidor (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there a point to the youtube link? How does this add value to the article? I think this might fall under the category of what wikipedia is not --JJLatWiki (talk) 20:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)