Talk:Persecution of Jews

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This article was nominated for deletion on 24 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

I have just removed both the external links in this article, because they led to a non-factual source and more over one of the links was a link to a sub-section of the site that the other link linked to.

The 'main' link was not about the Persecution of Jews as such, but rather it was a site about anti-semitism (which has it's own Wikipedia article) and moreover it was not a factual source, but rather propaganda (or if you want to express it less strongly: a commercial) for an online seminar, which in turn is nothing more than a prolonged rant which, ultimately, concludes by telling Jews that all Anti-Semitism will go away if they start living their lives following the site which hosts the seminar (www.aish.com). It should be noted that the same site denounces union between Jews and non-Jews as diminishing the numbers of the Jewish people and lables children of such a union as 'lost to the Jewish people'.

The 'sub-section' link linked to a timeline which was more factual than the main site, but due to the fact that it seems to claim certain events as being 'targetted at Jews' when they were in fact targetted at all minorities, for instance the Inquisition, (thus making them examples of Radical Nationalism, Fundamentalism or Racism, but not of anti-semitism specifically). Robrecht 01:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 mergeto anti-Semitism? 2 Atheists persecuting Christians? 3 Inaccuracies 4 Ridiculous article 5 Unreferenced 6 Excellent article, well done everyone!!!! 7 "Persecution" 8 Removal 9 Catholic Fundamentalism

[edit] mergeto anti-Semitism?

What is the reason for this article's existence when there is anti-Semitism? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Conversely, if there is to be a broad article on treatment of Jews by Gentiles, the very title of this precludes balance, and it would be really silly to have an article called Benevolence toward Jews or some such. In many countries, the story is a very complex one of Jews being actively invited in under one ruler, then persecuted under another. Can someone suggest a possible refactoring of this material? - Jmabel | Talk 06:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

There are various articles on Wikipedia titled "persecution of A-ists by B-ians", etc.—Christians by polytheists, Protestants by Catholics, Catholics by Protestants, Muslims by Christians, Christians by Muslims, etc. This is just another of those. Should ALL of them be refactored? Michael Hardy 19:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, look at this template:

Religious discrimination and persecution
By victimized group Anti-clericalism African religions · Atheists Bahá'ís · Buddhists · Cathars Christians · Hellenistic polytheism Hindus · Jehovah's Witnesses Jews · Mormons · Muslims Neopagans · Rastafari · Zoroastrians
By method Abuse · Censorship · Desecration Discrimination · Fascism Forced conversion · Genocide Intolerance · Pogrom Segregation · State atheism State religion · Terrorism Violence · War
Historical events Inquisition · French Wars of Religion French Revolutionary Dechristianisation Cristero War · Red Terror · Cultural Revolution · Test Act Cromwellian conquest of Ireland Thirty Years War · Kulturkampf War in the Vendée This box: view • talk • edit

Michael Hardy 19:09, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atheists persecuting Christians?

Speaking as an atheist: don't we get <irony>"credit"</irony> for persecuting Christians during the French Revolution and in various Communist countries? - Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracies

Lots of this article is simply wrong. For example "The Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husayni staged a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq and organized the Farhud pogrom" - in fact he did neither. --McKay 03:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ridiculous article

Just in editing the first paragraph, you find total inaccuracies.

I changed the first paragraph to be more accurate. The original paragraph stated:

Christianity, which has its roots in Jewish teachings about a messiah, has often had a contentious relationship with Judaism, giving rise to antisemitism. Some Christians have opposed the Jews' claim to being God's chosen people. Other Christians considered Jews to be instrumental in the biblical betrayal of Jesus, whom Christians consider to be the Messiah. Another historical source of Christian antagonism towards Jews is rooted in their rejection of the divinity of Jesus. In Judaism, the divinity of Jesus is regarded as a serious heresy that negates the absolute unity, non-corporality and invisibility of God according to the Torah.

I changed it to read:

Christianity, which has its roots in Jewish teachings about a messiah, has often had a contentious relationship with Judaism, giving rise to antisemitism. Some fringe Christians have opposed the Jews' claim to being God's chosen people. Most Christians consider Jews to be instrumental in the biblical betrayal of Jesus, whom Christians consider to be the Messiah, since Judas Iscariot and the Pharisees were all Jews. In Judaism, the divinity of Jesus is regarded as a serious heresy that negates the absolute unity, non-corporality and invisibility of God according to the Torah.

• "Some Christians" is too broad to describe what only fringe Christians believe to be true. This is only typical of "Christian Identity" movements and no serious mainline church believes that nonsense.

• Since all the people trying to get Jesus crucified were Jews, obviously most Christians would believe that Jews had a hand in the death of Jesus. The Romans didn't know or care anything about Jesus, and especially did not want to crucify Him. Jesus never preached against the Roman Empire and the lies of the Pharisees were dishonest attempts to have Jesus killed.

• There is no "Christian antagonism" against Jews simply because they don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah. Christians don't care and certainly no such antagonism exists except perhaps among some "kook" Christians.

The rest of the article needs to be cleaned up and the obvious "Christophobia" needs to be cleaned out. Jtpaladin 23:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is not only about the current situation. Please see History of antisemitism and/or read a good thick book on the subject. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 01:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I see some of your points, Jtpaladin, but Jewish rejection of Christ's divinity is a historical source of antagonism and reason for persecution of them. In no way does that mean Christians in general want to persecute Jews because of that; it's merely been a past justification and I don't think you can easily deny that. Also, considering Jews to be instrumental in Christ's betrayal because of their nature as Jews is also a historical reason for their persecution. Simply believing they were major players in the story, as "most Christians do", is not, and is not really relevant to the article. Believe me, if you had problems with the first paragraph now, you should have seen it before. I reverted. Thanks Twalls 09:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of this article is an anti-Christian, anti-Islam hate spew (in violation of WP Policy). Unless these allegations are sourced I will boldly delete them. (or someone else please do it - don't wait for me) Fourtildas (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Was just wandering by, saw your post, and thought I might inquire what you're referring to? - CheshireKatz (talk) 09:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh, since when is the truth anti-anything? Except anti-falsehood, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.115.153 (talk) 22:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced

I recently tagged this article with {{unreferenced}} because there were not any footnotes or citations within this article. It seems to be highly WP:OR.--Sefringle 04:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a large difference between failure to cite and original research. The latter implies introduction of material for which it would not be possible to cite. If you believe there are examples of the latter, please be specific, so those can be addressed rapidly. - Jmabel | Talk 19:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent article, well done everyone!!!!

How do I nominate this article for the feature page, this article is both topical, newsworthy and reads truthfully and smoothly as well as being almost long enough to cover the subject matter, well done to all!!!!211.28.41.32 (talk) 12:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Persecution"

I wanted to remind everyone of this. Unless an action, or view, or law (etc.) is specifically labeled as "persecution" (by a reliable source), it should not be in this article. This article is about persecution of Jews, not unfair acts against them, or anything that is not persecution.

To be "persecution" it must be called "persecution" by a reliable source (preferably multiple ones).

This is an accordance with consensus on Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/Archive_34#Persecution. Thanks.Bless sins (talk) 14:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

Per the above notice I'm going to remove material on the Qur'an and the prophet Muhammad here since neither calls for the persecution of Jews.Bless sins (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I restored it. It is well sourced, and this censorship is unacceptable. Yahel Guhan 20:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What's unacceptable is WP:NOR. The source (Esposito) doesn't accuse the prophet of persecuting Jews. To say that the prophet persecuted Jews is ridiculous since he had a Jewish wife. Please keep such nonsense to your self.Bless sins (talk) 01:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh ha. Now you are providing your own original research as justifaction for your censorship. Mind WP:CIVIL. Yahel Guhan 06:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yahel, Esposito is simply saying what happened and is not putting it under the context of "persecution" against Jews. Please read it for yourself if you do not believe me.--Be happy!! (talk) 06:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

If Yahel wants to stick to his position, then he'll have to provide the full quotation. I'd expect something like this to come from Spencer's book. But Esposito? No way.Bless sins (talk) 13:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is the full quote:

After each major battle, one of the Jewish tribes was accused and punished for such acts. Muslim perception of distrust, intrigue, and rejection on the part of the Jews led first to exile and later to warfare. After Badr. the Banu Qainuqa tribe and after the Battle of Uhud, the Banu Nadir, with their families and possessions, were expelled from Medina. After the Battle of the Ditch in 627, the Jews of the Banu Qurayza were denounced as traitors who had consorted with the Meccans. As was common in Arab (and, indeed, Semitic) practice, the men were massacred; the women and children were spared but enslaved.

Massacures are persecutions. It is relevant. Yahel Guhan 01:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It's on page 15. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I can not see Esposito calling it persecution. Strictly speaking a common punishment of traitors in a culture referred to massacre does not by itself add up to persecution, IMO. Let's get the facts straight: In the opinion of a person, this might be persecution and in the opinion of another this may not. I can understand that. I can also imagine one may find an scholar who calls this persecution, but please do find such a scholar and attribute it to the scholar. Also in fairness, please find another scholar who does not call this persecution and we will be all happy :)--Be happy!! (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

How about:

"The first encounters between Muslims and Jews, at the dawn of Islam, resulted in persecution when Muhammad expelled or massacred the Jewish tribes of Medina." Mark R. Cohen, Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages, Princeton University Press, 1994, p. 163. ISBN 069101082X

That should do. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Good! Cohen is calling it persecution. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in that case we include the information, attributing it to Cohen.Bless sins (talk) 02:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, the sentence that follows says "this encounter turned out to be the exception rather than the rule".Bless sins (talk) 02:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic Fundamentalism

I am going to fix the part that says "The Nazis were Catholic fundamentalists (After Hitler came to power he signed a document with the Pope to make Catholicism the official and only religion of Nazi Germany), so they naturally blamed Jews for the murder of Jesus, deicide." This was unsourced and completely differs from sourced statements given on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion such as

According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[3]

and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs#Private_statements and

In 1941 the Nazi authorities decreed the dissolution of all monasteries and abbeys in the German Reich, many of them effectively being occupied and secularized by the Allgemeine SS under Himmler. However on July 30, 1941 the Aktion Klostersturm (Operation Monastery Sacking) was put to an end by a decree of Hitler, who feared the increasing protests by the Catholic part of German population might result in passive rebellions and thereby harm the Nazi war effort at the eastern front.[12] The Christian Churches were amongst the first victims of Nazi war crimes in the rise to power of the Nazis, and detailed plans were made to eliminate them after power was secured.[13]

, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Kerrl

"In 1935 Kerrl scored some initial successes in reconciling the differing parties in the Church Struggle. However, by the second half of 1936, his position was clearly undermined by NSDAP hostility, and by the refusal of the churches to work with a government body which they regarded as a captive or stooge of the Nazi Party. Hitler gradually adopted a more uncompromising and intolerant stance, probably under the growing influence of ideologues such as Bormann, Rosenberg and Himmler, who were loathe to entertain any idea of the new Germany having a Christian foundation even in a token form." (Munro, Gregory: "The Reich Church Ministry in Nazi Germany 1935-1938", paper given at the Australian Conference of European Historians, July 1997).

and so on (I can provide much more if needed.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Driveanddrinkv8 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Driveanddrinkv8 (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I also took out the parenthesized:

(After Hitler came to power he signed a document with the Pope to make Catholicism the official and only religion of Nazi Germany)

which was too vague and obviously inaccurate. I assume this was talking about the Reichskonkordat (although it avoids giving any kind of source at all) which said none of that. And obviously the Nazis themselves worked to begin a different religion.

Driveanddrinkv8 (talk) 16:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)