Talk:Pendle witch trials

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Good article Pendle witch trials has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
April 20, 2008 Good article nominee Listed

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[edit] Another novel for the bibilography?

I think the backstory of Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett also involves the Lancashire witch trials, but it's been a long time since I read it and can't say for sure. Anyway the family names Device and Nutter figure in the book. --Jim Henry 01:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

In Manchester have spotted the buses of the Burnley and Pendle bus company operate a '#Witch Way' service with each bus named after one of the witches in question http://www.thewitchway.co.uk/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.48.235.87 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 30 September 2006.

[edit] Rewrite

I'm considering a complete rewrite of the article. It would probably be more tactful to try to edit what's there and incorporate extra material into it, but having looked at the article as it is now, I feel it would be a lot easier to start from scratch, so I hope nobody who has been working on it will feel that I've trodden on their corns. I'd ask people to be patient, as the initial draft may reduce the article to something shorter than its current state, but I'll be very happy to discuss and make changes after I've done the first bit of work. I'll be working from the three books that are mentioned in the "Further reading" section — Bennett, Pool, and Potts. ElinorD (talk) 11:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I only messed around with it as I came across it by accident and was intrigued as I used to live near there. I would be very interested to see it rewritten as it looks like a great story but this article does not do it justice. Thanks for offering to do the work! Sophia 13:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with The Pendle Witches

There is unreferenced information in the The Pendle Witches article that may or may not be worth bringing to this article. Either this article or the The Pendle Witches article should be turned into a redirect. Both articles can not stand alone. Clerks. 19:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

As the merger notice has been in place for some considerable time, and no editor has opposed the merger proposal, then I am going ahead with it. I have merged what material I think is useful from The Pendle Witches article into this one, and I have also deleted the lengthy quotations from the confessions, as it didn't seem to be in any kind of context. I will now set up the redirect from The Pendle Witches and I look forward to this article now evolving into one that does its subject proper justice. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I meant to add Commons:Image:Potts.png to the article some time ago, but it went out of my head. I see someone has done great work on the since I last looked. Obviously the place to put the image of the Potts book would be in the section on the trial, but it won't fit without other things being moved and rewritten, and I don't know if it's worth the trouble. But I'm just mentioning the image here in case anyone wants to add it at any stage. If not, no problem. Several months ago, I was planning a major rewrite of this article myself, but I don't have the time right now. ElinorD (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that Potts' book deserves a section to itself, as it's essentially written a series of mock trials that don't reflect the reality of Jacobean courtroom procedure, and very likely had a political motivation. So that would obviously be the best place for the image. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Fine. If you find a use for it, use it. If I get time to get more involved (I've been ill recently), I might add it myself. In the meantime, you know where to find it if you have a use for it. ElinorD (talk) 21:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm hoping to get this article ready for a GA nomination in the next week or so, so any help will be gratefully received. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My GA Review of this article

A good article has the following attributes:

  1. It is well written. In this respect:
         (a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
         (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.
  • The following text has too much personal voice for an encyclopedia. Is this a direct quote for the cited book or is it paraphrased? Please revise: "Bromley on the other hand was looking for promotion to a circuit nearer London, but how best to bring himself to James' attention? Was it by aggressively testing the witnesses, or by encouraging convictions for witchcraft?[9]"
  • "malefic" is jargon -- please replace with more familiar word, like "evil" or "malicious"
  • Break See also links into two columns to conserve space
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:
         (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;
         (b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons;[2] and
         (c) contains no original research.
  • Please find a citation for the text I marked accordingly
  • I think this text needs an additional citation, apart for the oft-quoted witchcraft book or it should be removed: "Witchcraft is a crime that most people would now define as impossible, and indeed the 1736 Witchcraft Act repealed the 1604 legislation, removing the crime of malevolent witchcraft from the statute books." Such a sweeping claim requires another perspective.
  3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:
         (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic;[3] and
         (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).
  • Good
  4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.
  • Good
  5. It is stable; that is, it is not the subject of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Vandalism reversion, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing) and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of constructive editing should be placed on hold.
  • No prior issues
  6. It is illustrated, where possible, by images.[4] In this respect:
         (a) images used are tagged with their copyright status, and fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
         (b) the images are appropriate to the topic, and have suitable captions.[5]
  • Five images, all adhering to respective copyright statuses
  • Policy states that lacing an image to the left of a header, a list, or the Table of Contents is also frowned upon. User:Malleus Fatuarum claims that the rule about left-aligned images applies only to sub-sections, but I don't see this exception anywhere—and sub-section or not, it's still a "header" of a section. In this case, the picture would ease the flow of the article to if placed right also. Unless an otherwise stated policy can be found, please change.

[edit] Superfluous suggestions

  • Can you locate one of these logos and post it? "Several local corporate bodies and businesses use a 'flying witch' logo..."

[edit] Conclusion

In its current condition, I will put this GAN on hold until the above issues are addressed. Thank you! --Eustress (talk) 04:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


Thank you for your prompt and very thorough review of this article, in which you make some very good points.

  • The requested citation has now been provided.
  • I've removed the text to which you objected, about witchcraft being a crime that most people would now define as impossible ... whether or not that's true, it is almost certainly an issue better discussed elsewhere than in this article.
  • For image placement, see MoS_images. The rule about left-alignment you quote applies to subsection headers, not to section headers. You may also like to take a look at logical quotation.
  • Changed "malefic witchcraft" to "causing harm by witchcraft".
  • The text considered to have too much personal voice has been revised.
  • I've removed a number of irrelevant links from See also. The English experience of witchcraft was quite different from the European one.
  • There would be no convincing fair use rationale for including any (copyrighted) logos.
  • The "oft-quoted witchcraft book" is the standard text on the subject.

--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pass to GA

Thank you for your attention. I'm happy to pass this to GA status...congratulations! --Eustress (talk) 02:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Most Haunted

I'm concerned about the references to the "Most Haunted" show in the Cultural References section. First of all, the host of the show was Yvette Fielding, not Derek Acorah - he was one of the resident "psychics". Secondly, it says that Derek Acorah was "possessed" during the programme. Although "possessed" is in inverted commas, I think it would be more accurate to say that he "appeared to be possessed". Acorah was supposedly "possessed" by some "spirit" every week and in fact, he was later dropped from the Most Haunted shows after the team became convinced he was making things up from bits of information he overheard during filming. Thirdly, some of the audience say they see "dark beings" and other such things on the webcams every week - not just in this programme. I think it really would be better to limit the Most haunted reference to the fact that it was the most watched programme on television that night, as the rest of it is unsubstantiated speculation that trivialises the subject. Richerman (talk) 22:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to make whatever changes you think are appropriate. Cultural references is a section I've pretty much left alone, and to be truthful I'm not at all comfortable with any of it. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I've cleaned it up and removed some of the rubbish, but I agree that it's dangerously close to being a triva section. Richerman (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
It is a trivia section, that's what's bothering me. Can a bus company's logo really be called a cultural reference? It's a lot better now that you've pruned some of the rubbish, but it's still not right. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd had hopes of maybe taking this to FA fairly soon, but it'll never get through that with this section as it stands. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd be happy for it to go but I suspect it would return fairly quickly. Richerman (talk) 23:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Oooo! I love a challenge. There's still a little bit to be added to the trials and the modern interpretation I think, but other than sorting out this bloody Cultural references section I think it would stand a fair chance at FA? What do you think? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I knew I shouldn't have thrown down a challenge like that! Yes, I think it's a good candidate, however one thing I've picked up - in the section Modern Interpretation it says:
"Court records show that Lancashire was peculiar in the north of England for the frequency of its witch trials. Neighbouring Cheshire, for instance, suffered from economic problems and religious activists just as did Lancashire, but in that county between 1589 and 1675 only 47 individuals were indicted for causing harm by witchcraft, of whom 11 were found guilty."
However, there's no comparative figure for indictments in Lancashire that I can see. Richerman (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Well spotted! But I did say that there was still a bit to be added to that section. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Excuses, excuses. Also, in the lead shouldn't "Old Demdike" be called by her real name, and wasn't she an "alleged witch" as she never got to be tried? Of course, that raises the question - if they were found guilty, does that mean they really were witches? :-)Richerman (talk) 00:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
You're probably right. In fact I was rather sorry to have to remove the comment about "witchcraft being a crime that most people would now define as impossible", as there never were any witches really, just people convicted as witches. Which is not at all the same thing. Perhaps I'll try and sneak that back in somewhere. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... "Most people would think" sounds like weasel words to me. Perhaps something verifiable like "Witchcraft is no longer recognised as a crime in British law" would be better. Richerman (talk) 00:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
"Most people ..." was a direct and attributed quotation if I recall correctly. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I should have known I wouldn't catch you out that easily - is it ok to quote weasel words though? And anyway, I'm sure some people would say that there were witches all along, it's just that we're non-believers. Richerman (talk) 00:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure you're right, there is a POV issue there. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Demdike

I'm rather confused with the names of the Demdike family on the diagram. Where does the name "Demdike" come from, was it just a nickname, and if so why is the family known as the Demdike family when the son's surname is Holgate? Also, why is Old Demdike called Elizabeth Southerns when her son is called Holgate? And shouldn't it be Elizabeth Holgate who married John Device rather than Elizabeth Device? That wasn't her name until after the marriage. Richerman (talk) 21:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Demdike is a nickname, just like Chattox. I've no idea where either of them came from. So far as I'm aware, they were called the Demdike family because they all lived together at Malkin Tower, with Old Demdike. So far as John Holgate is concerned, it's not uncommon for children to have a different surname from their mother, because their mother remarried, for instance. In the case of John Holgate, I suspect that he was born illegitimately, and that he did not have the same father as his sister Elizabeth. It would be an unsupported assumption therefore, to give Elizabeth the surname Holgate. Nowehere is she referred to as Elizabeth Holgate. The bottom line, of course, is that the only record we have of any of these people is what Potts' wrote in his pamphlet, so we can only report what he tells us. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah well, my confusion will remain then. Richerman (talk) 22:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)