Talk:Pema Chödrön

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pema Chödrön article.
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[edit] Photograph

I feel that the photo of Pema Chodron in this entry is too dark. Can someone provide a better picture?

This is not a Pema fan page. The picture is one Chodron and/or Chodron's publisher uses. I have nothing to do with posting the picture that is up, but I am very uncomfortable with this becoming another wiki page that ends up being skewed by the subject's staunch supporters. 172.195.100.41 21:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The current photograph does not appear to me to be of Pema Chodron. In the origional photo on flickr, she is not identified, and from photos I've seen, the nun in the picture looks very different from Pema Chodron. Has this photo been verified? Nightngle (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure either, but it's motivated me to look for a more current photo. I've sent emails to three folks that have some online asking if they'd release them. - Owlmonkey (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Satire

Ekijati removed "as spam" a link to a wonderfully done satire regarding Chodron in Big Red Buddha, a marvelous, professionally written webzine. I, Enkido, put up the link and it is not spam from me; I'm not Miso, the webmaster; I didn't write the satire. Pema Chodron is a very public person and is certainly not protected from being satirized. Yes, it is not wholly positive, but must everything said about Pema BE positive? THAT is, in fact, I would guess, one of the issues regarding Pema: That she is unassailable -- like the Dalai Lama, St. Francis of Assisi, and Sadam Hussein before 2002 in Iraq. Is Wiki supposed to be a fan magazine, like People or Us -- hopelessly, cloyingling, truth-twistingly positivist? Satarize, don't sanitize!! -- --Enkido 22:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Please take some time to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies. External links are not allowed in the body of the article. Thanks. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 22:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

So, Ekajati, your sole objection is where the external link was placed? -- --Enkido 22:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely. For example, if the satire magazine cover was made from a copyrighted photograph w/o the permission of the photographer, WP policy would also not allow linking to it. It is in questionable taste, and not pertinent to the bio of this individual, and may very well violate WP:LIVING. Dubious all around, IMO. What's your motivation? Ekajati (yakity-yak) 22:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

MY motivation? That bios in Wiki not fall under the control of the subject's supports such that they are all worshipful. For example, what does this mean, how is this quantified? "She is one of the most successful interpreters of Tibetan Buddhism for westerners." Chodron is probably most know by her books rather than her workshops, seminars and retreats, BUT IT IS THESE IN-PERSON EVENTS WHERE HER MONEY IS MADE. Chodron's agents are, I am sure, delighted with this Wiki entry. They couldn't have paid for better. REAL people have warts and a buzz of concern about them, but in Western Buddhism, you won't easily see it in print. Consider, Zen and the Art of Archery, which was about magic about as much as Harry Potter was the top-selling book on Zen for decades. Why? In part, because it was too pristine for criticism. I would contend that the Big Red Buddha satire is saying something many if not most Buddhists exposed to the Pema phenomena are really thinking: She is a little too much like a Buddhist Mary Poppins OR too authentic to be truly authentic OR, as they say in Zen [tho she's not a Zenist, of course], She has the stench of Zen. -- --Enkido 23:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you go edit Mother Teresa for a while, then? You certainly aren't biased, oh no. If you don't like that statement, why don't you ask for a citation or rewrite it? Adding "satire" that violates the precept of "Right Speech" seems a bit hypocritical, given your concerns. :-) Ekajati (yakity-yak) 15:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Ekajati, you must be unfamiliar with life in America, freedom and encyclopedias. In my response to you asking about my motivation, I was fleshing out all that is wrong with this article. Why DONT YOU, instead of adding to the falseness of this bio, do something constructive to clean it up, huh? In bios of Abraham Lincoln, the reactions of others than his worshipful supporters is known. I don't know a lot about Mother Teresa, and she is not so much in my realm of interest, but HELL YES things about her that might suggest she is real instead of floating above the soil should be presented. I bet Mother Teresa got her hands dirty caring for the dying in Calcutta. I would like to know all that. What is good about satire, generally, is that it gets at things that aren't normally presented in publications sanitized by censors who don't know what they're doing. :-( --Enkido 00:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You mean got her hands dirty "fucking" for the dying in Calcutta, forcing them to convert otherwise cursing them to hell?

btw, where in the world did you get the idea that satire violates the precept of "Right Speech?" In what fundamentalist Christian church did you learn that? Besides, this bio SHOULD NOT BE WRITTEN IN ACCORD WITH ANYONE'S IDEAS OF WHAT RIGHT SPEECH IS. This bio should be written under a proper code that is uniform for ALL bios in this wikipedia. I am agast -- agast, I tell you -- that you would disagree with that!  :-) --Enkido 00:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Putting all the appeals to freedom of speech, right speech, and Mother Teresa aside, it sounds like you would like to write an article for a magazine about your original research about Pema Chodron - that would be very interesting to read. The article as it stands now is merely a stub and hardly the glowing praise of Pema Chodron that seems to be alluded to here. Hopefully, more will be added to the page, but facts about her life would be more in keeping with the encyclopedic nature of this work as opposed the analysis of her work, comparisons with other religious teachers or Oprah, and her place in Western Buddhism that you seem to be suggesting.Nightngle 16:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most successful interpreters

Ekijati You added a request for a citation to this: "She is one of the most successful interpreters of Tibetan Buddhism for westerners, noted for her approachable and down-to-earth teaching style" Even with a citation, I would like to know what it MEANS. Successful as in having amassed the most wealth? Successful as measured how? She IS the ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT -- I would think that would be a gimmee. As for her style, could we go with "approachable, down-to-earth and annoying"? How about adding "noted for being Oprah-like in putting her picture on the front of all of her books." --Enkido 01:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Citations

I see that there is a single citation at the end of this article. Does that mean that all the information is from that article or does that mean that just the info about her kids and grandkids are from that article? Shouldn't there be a more complete citation system on this page? Thanks, Killerbeez 17:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Killerbeez, no one owns this, or any other article. If you have other citations to add or improvements to make, please do so - that's actually far preferable to going from article to article asking other people to do the heavy lifting. Thanks Nightngle 13:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)