Talk:Paul Samuelson

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[edit] Bank of Sweden Prize in Economics

There is no such thing as a Nobel Prize in Economics. Nobel never instituted a prize for economics, nor would he. Economists have free-rided the event to enhance their profession. The Bank of Sweden Prize for Economics was instituted with public money, tipical, and they forced their hand to be given at the same date. The marketing ploy is in the "In Memory of Alfred Nobel", which belies a laugh. Not even the most liberal economist would honor a monopolist business man, warmonger, inventor of Dynamite, suplier of the military. Only wikipedia can tell the truth. Britanica hires economists to write about the Nobel Prize in Economics and spread the small lie around.

Don't care much for economists? You might find it interesting that the official Nobel prize site includes the prize in economics. You might also want to learn a bit about the prizes. They tend to be awarded by a committee of peers, and for this award they are members of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. The Nobel Foundation, who administers the awards, accepted the inclusion of the prize for economics. Ultimately, if you want to make outlandish claims as those above, you had best support them with facts and well argued conclusions. Otherwise, you're just another crank.
This answer is factually inaccurate.
  • There is no Nobel Prize in Economics
  • [1] starts with The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel has been awarded to 61 persons since 1969. Is there any mention of Nobel prize in Economics? No. Contrast this with say [2] which starts with The Nobel Prize in Physics has been awarded to 180 individuals since 1901
  • Wikipedia even agrees with this [3] With the exception of the Nobel Peace Prize, the Nobel Prizes and the Prize in Economics are presented in Stockholm...
You can disregard reality all you want. The fact remains and it will remain unaltered. No matter how many people believe the term Nobel Prize in Economics is accurate, the diplomas won't have that phrase written in them in Swedish [4]
Of course you will probably argue that wikipedia or the nobel foundation are not reliable sources and I won't be able to fight that solipsism, but at least the references will remain here so that those who are interested can find the facts for themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.91.110 (talk) 23:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
In case there were any doubts, the Nobel foundations dissipates them without any chance of confusion. [5] The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize 89.180.91.110 —Preceding comment was added at 23:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know anything about the 'Nobel Prize for Economics' but does it really matter how it is referred to? The point is that the prize exists, and its history and merits can be discussed elsewhere. All that is relevant here is that Paul Samuelson won the prize, irrespsective of which particular name is used to refer to it. 217.206.76.146 14:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Didn't he also make an important to the Heckscher-Ohlin model?

That should be somehow added to wikipedia

Hi, I've added a link from Paul Samuelson to Heckscher-Ohlin model, and expanded on his connection with it there. Wikipedia is very light on economics and finance, so it would be great if you could add some connections or definitions where you spot gaps like this. Wragge 21:28, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)

[edit] Other prominent family members

The following paragraphs and above heading were deleted from the end of the Paul Samuelson article:

Former Harvard President and Treasury Secretary Larry Summers is his nephew; according to the book Harvard Rules, Summers's father, Robert Summers, who is himself a distinguished economist, changed his family name from Samuelson to Summers. Robert Summers' wife, Anita, an economist and professor of public policy, is also the sister of renowned economist and Nobel Prize winner Kenneth Arrow.
Paul Samuelson also has a son bearing the same name, except they have different middle names. Paul Samuelson has over 20 years of experience in building, managing and representing portfolio strategies and is the founder of Samuelson Portfolio Strategies. Paul has been the Chief Investment Officer, Director of Portfolio Analysis, and Director of Research at several prestigous financial institutions. Paul graduated Phi Beta Kappa (like his father) and Cum Laude from Williams College B.A. and holds a Ph.D. and a M.S.M. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Paul is a principal of Upstream Technologies wholly owned broker dealer subsidiary, Upstream Securities, LLC.

All of those mentioned above are persons of distinction, and the connections are interesting. But what is the first paragraph doing in article about Paul Samuelson (not immediate family)? That paragraph seems more relevant to the article for Larry Summers.

The second paragraph is largely from an online company source. Very interesting. But there are only 2 distinct Google hits for:

"Samuelson Portfolio Strategies" nobel,

including one regarding class notes. The prominence of this connection is questionable for the present article.

The current article has a big template at the top calling for Wikifying the article. Including this 2-paragraph sectiom (on the long side compared to most other sections) may discourage improvement on what is already there. Perhaps after the article is improved, consideration could be given to mentioning secondary matters. Interested readers might regard it as a distraction for now. --Thomasmeeks 20:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC) [1st quoted sentence aove edited in the interest of taste & accuracy. --Thomasmeeks 21:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)]

[edit] Thermoeconomics?

User "Sadi Carnot" inserted the claim (in the first line of the article on Paul Samuelson) that Samuelson is known "particularly" for his contributions to "thermoeconomics". This can't be true, since "thermoeconomics" is virtually unknown, whereas Samuelson is one of the most influential economists of the 20th century.

It's true that there have been many fruitful interactions between statistical physics and economic theory, and physics methods played a role in Samuelson's book "Foundations of Economic Analysis". This is still mentioned in the Samuelson article.

If someone considers Samuelson a "thermoeconomist", maybe this could be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it doesn't belong in the introduction of the article, because it is clearly a minority point of view. If someone thinks Samuelson actually identifies himself as a "thermoeconomist" or that his contributions can mostly be classified that way, good citations to that effect are needed. --Rinconsoleao 07:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The term "thermoeconomics" wasn't coined until 1962, however Samuelson was one of the first economists to apply the equilibrium principles of thermodynamics to economics, and he one the Noble prize for doing so. Samuelson himself credits Willard Gibbs (the founder of chemical thermodynamics) for this. To elaborate with (references): A noted researcher in the field of thermoeconomics is American Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Samuelson.[1][2][3] His 1947 book Foundations of Economic Analysis, from his doctoral dissertation, his magnum opus, is based on the classical thermodynamic methods of American thermodynamicist Willard Gibbs, specifically Gibbs' 1876 paper On the Equilibrium of Heterogeneous Substances.[4][5][6] Gibbs was mentor to Samuelson and to American economist Irving Fisher and he influenced them both in their ideas on equilibrium of economic systems.[3][7] Attempts at neo-classical equilibrium economics analogies with thermodynamics generally, however, go back to Guilluame and Samuelson.[8]

I deleted the section defining Samuelson as the "pionneer" of the field of "thermoeconomics." User Sadi Carnot insists it is a field, but it is not, as testified by the fact that no academic journal bears this name, and there is no reference to "thermoeconomics" in the leading literature in economics. Therefor, making Samuelson a "pionneer" of this "field" is pointless. (Cf. discussions on the "thermoeconomics" article where user Sadi Carnot makes the same attempts - unsufficently challenged in my opinion - to bolster "thermoeconomics." Seinecle 16:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Sadi Carnot did a good job of documenting (with references) the role of thermodynamic theory in Samuelson's work, so including a discussion of this seems appropriate. What I agree is inappropriate is calling Samuelson a "pioneer of thermoeconomics", which sounds like a suggestion that Samuelson identifies himself with the field. It's clear that supporters of "thermoeconomics" identify themselves with Samuelson, but I am unaware of any evidence that Samuelson identifies himself with "thermoeconomics". Some rewriting to clarify this would be appropriate. --Rinconsoleao 07:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that it's not yet clear there is an established field called "thermoeconomics", and the lack of refereed journals in the field is particularly telling (and the thermoeconomics page may have a POV problem). But there are growing interactions between economics and physics. There is a special issue of the Journal of Economic Dynamics and Control, now forthcoming, on 'Applications of Statistical Physics in Economics and Finance'. --Rinconsoleao 07:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I also suspect it's incorrect to claim that Samuelson was one of the 'first' to apply physics to economics. As I recall from Phillip Mirowski's book, there have been attempts for more than a century to do so. If this is not well known, it's largely because the impact of those attempts has in many cases been marginal. But it's true that some of the methods in Samuelson's Foundations came from physics, and it's true that that book has been extremely influential. --Rinconsoleao 07:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] References

  1. ^ Samuelson, P. A., “Structure of a Minimum Equilibrium System”, (R. W. Pfouts, ed., Essays in Economics and Econometrics: A Volume in Honor of Harold Hotelling, University of North Carolina Press, 1960), reprinted in J. E. Stiglitz ed., The Collected Scientific Papers of Paul 32, A. Samuelson, M.I.T Press, Cambridge, Mass., 1966, pgs. 651-686.
  2. ^ Bryant, John. (2007). “A thermodynamic theory of economics”, International Journal of Exergy (IJEX), Vol. 4, No. 3.
  3. ^ a b Eric Smith, Duncan Foley (2005): Classical Thermodynamics and Economic General Equilibrium Theory
  4. ^ P A Samuelson, Gibbs in economics, Proceedings of the Gibbs Symposium (Providence, R.I., 1990), 255-267.
  5. ^ K R Jolls, Gibbs and the art of thermodynamics, Gibbs in economics, Proceedings of the Gibbs Symposium (Providence, R.I., 1990), 293-321.
  6. ^ Liossatos, Panagis, S. (2004). “Statistical Entropy in General Equilibrium Theory,” (pg. 3). Department of Economics, Florida International University.
  7. ^ Mirowski, Philip (1989). More Heat than Light: Economics as Social Physics, Physics as Nature's Economics. Cambridge Univ. Press. ISBN 0521426898. 
  8. ^ McCauley Joseph. l. (2004). “Thermodynamic analogies in economics and finance: instability of markets” Published in: Physica A.329 (2003): pp. 199-212.

I hope this clarifies things. --Sadi Carnot 00:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Most researchers have tried various routes, sometimes succesful, sometimes crap that got abandoned. Thermodynamics didn't make it and is not part of mainstream economic, thus I'm also against inclusion of the section. BTW, journals like International Journal of Exergy are not exactly respectable sources for economics. Try something like consistent work in real economics journals like the American Economic Review to get credibility for the idea. AdamSmithee 06:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)