Talk:Patriot (American Revolution)

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Contents

[edit] " Congress-men"

This edit made by User:68.186.22.152 changed "Congress-Men" into "Congress-Women". Looking at the context, it clearly looks like vandalism to me, but if anyone wants to debate that, please say so. Thanks. --JDitto 00:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC) yo[: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.122.65.160 (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Patriots is the name that those who rebelled called themselves. The Loyalists did not call them patriots.

  • those who rebelled called themselves: Patriots
  • those who rebelled were called by those who remained loyal to the crown: rebels
  • those who remained loyal to the crown called themselves: Loyalists
  • those who remained loyal to the crown were called by those who rebelled: Tory's.

BradMajors (talk) 22:04, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


Additional information...

  • The term “Patriot” was in use by American colonists prior to the war during the 1760’s, referring to the American Patriot Party (ref: Murray, Smithsonian Q & A: The American Revolution, 31).

ColWilliam (talk) 16:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Patriot is POV

To call the pro-independence Americans 'Patriots' is POV. It could be argued that the Americans were not patriotic, rebelling against their Motherland, and allying themselve to Britain's bitter enemy France. It also by default implies that the American Loyalists were unpatriotic. We should seriously consider moving this article to another title. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 00:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact is, however, that the term "Patriot" is consistently used by reliable, peer reviewed, historical sources. Sticking with the term consistently used by historians of the era is the best way to insure a NPOV. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

What country are these historians from? Patriot is a term used almost exclusively used in the United States. It is not used in British and Irish sources, and Canadian historians are unlikely to use the term either. It would not be understood by many people. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 01:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The case you would need to make is that the majority of historians on the American Revolution are not, in fact, from the United States. United States historians dominate the field so the terminology they use is most appropriate for Wikipedia articles on the subject. For example, Robert Harvey, from England, wrote "A Few Bloody Noses" that tells the story of the Revolution from a British perspective -- his bibliography is predominantly from American works. Why do you suppose that is?
The use of "patriot" in this article will be understood as soon as someone reads the first sentence. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Just because there are more Americans, and therefore more American historians, it does not make the use of the term "Patriot" correct. This is an international wikipedia, there is a problem with calling this title by a name almost exclusively known in one country alone. This is why I have tagged this article indicating it does not present a worldwide view. This article needs a less POV title even if it something less catchy like Supporters of the American Revolution. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 02:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Your use of the tag is inappropriate. If you go to the applicable project page you will see that it clearly says:
"Generally, this project concentrates upon remedying omissions (entire topics, or particular sub-topics in extant articles) rather than on either (1) protesting inappropriate inclusions, or (2) trying to remedy issues of how material is presented."
Besides, your argument makes no sense. You are saying, in effect, that American historians use an incorrect term purely because, according to you, foreign historians don't use the term. Different usage in different countries of a term doesn't make a term incorrect nor does it make it POV -- it simply makes it different. Your solution, to substitute some minority usage for a majority usage, is equally nonsensical -- why exactly is the non-American term, used by reliable sources, less appropriate that a term used (allegedly) in other countries? Why exactly should Wikipedia ignore a term used by actual people in the 18th Century to describe themselves? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting Americans historians shouldn't call them Patriots, they are free to call them what they like. This is an international wikipedia, not a purely American one and it needs to use widely understood and neutral terminology. "Patriot" is both a term limited to use in one country (USA) term and also a POV one which ignores other viewpoints (Loyalist Americans and non-Americans). The article should be moved to a more neutral title Supporters of the American Revolution and within the article it could be explained the different popular names for such supporters, and where they originated from. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 03:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Please show what reliable, historical sources use the expression "Supporters of the American Revolution" to refer to the Patriots of the 1770s and 1780s. It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to popularize new terminology.
I agree that Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia. Of course, the leading historians of the American Revolution, while being predominately Americans, also write for an international audience and these views and research by Americans must be addressed in order for any non-American writing on the subject to be taken seriously by other historians -- just as American historians must, and do, address the works of non-Americans BTW, the American dominance is not, as you suggest, simply the result of the population of the country but is directly related to the natural interest of Americans in one of the most pivotal periods in our history.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It is the purpose of wikipedia to come up with names that are acceptable and undertstood around the globe. Supporters of the American Revolution and Opponents of the American Revolution (for Loyalists) would be able to cover a much broader area and are more neutral. Patriot as it stands is an unsatisfactory term.

I still contend that Patriot is POV. Its use is confined only to one country, and the historians of that country. It is not used, and scarecly heard of in other countries. Please provide some evidence of extensive use of the term Patriot by Loyalists and Non-Americans. Where does the term come from? The article mentioned an American Patriot Party, but all I could find on wikipedia was a white supremacist party. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 21:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The reference to an American Patriot Party is footnoted. Since I didn't add the source, you're going to need to find the book. You can check out http://www.samueljohnson.com/tnt.html for several instances where Dr. Johnson refers directly to American patriots. You're not bringing in any arguments that I have not already addressed. My objections stand and I probably won't respond further until some other editors weigh in. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, its a bit unproductive to keep slugging away on this argument. I won't post again on this topic until I have gathered together some moure sources, at which point I may propose a move. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 22:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Tag

I have removed the tag on this article as further reading has convinced me that Patriot is an acceptable term, althrough one largely used in the United States, and is used as an equivilant of Loyalist to speak of one faction in the American War of Independence/American Revolution. This is part of an ongoing discussion on the Talk page of the "American Revolutionary War" article. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, as pointed out by Northshoreman, the reason why "Americans" predominantly use it is because American's predominantly write American history. We tend to accept, unless theres an especially good reason otherwise, the terms used by historians of a specific country since they also tend to write the most scholarly sources upon which to base history off of. Otherwise we end up with a situation where we've neutered the language of an article in an attempt to "internationalize" an article and up losing the point. We use language that has common currency in scholarly publications for a reason; it is often the most precise, the most accurate, and even when its "ambiguous" in relation to the larger world, within the context of its field its meaning is well understood. SiberioS (talk) 05:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)