Talk:Passive solar building design

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Portal	This environment-related article is part of the Environment WikiProject to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the environment. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly categorized. See WikiProject Environment and Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.

Architecture Portal

This article covers subjects of relevance to Architecture. To participate, visit the WikiProject Architecture for more information. The current monthly improvement drive is Johannes Itten.

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale.

???

This article has not yet received an importance rating on the assessment scale.

[edit] Text to be merged from Passive Solar Heating

Passive Solar Heating uses building design techniques which incorporate into the building ways in which the heat from sunlight is used to heat the structure. A trombe wall is one such technique. Passive solar building often use massive materials such as stone, concrete, and adobe.

Many key techinques of utilizing passive solar heating involve controlling the amount of sunlight transmitted within the building during different seasons. In temperate Northern zones, buildings are constructed with few windows on the Northern side and large, wide windows on the Southern side. Thus, when in summer the Sun's rays come from further north, the building will be shaded, whereas in the winter more sunlight will shine through the windows.

(The directions are, of course, reversed in the Southern Hemisphere.) Similarly, awnings or overhangs may be angled so as to block out summer sunlight while permitting winter sunlight to pass through. Deciduous trees planted on the windowed side of the house will likewise shade it during the summer while allowing more sunlight in the winter.

Note - I added the whole second paragraph, and won't mind a bit if it's chopped wholesale as redundant with the main article. -- April

[edit] Merge with passive house was bogus

The recent merge of passive house was bogus. de:Passivhaus describes a building standard that uses some of ideas described in passive solar. That standard (and others that define even stricter categories) are popular terms in several countries. Note that this article now has two outgoing interwiki links going to the German WP. Geez, we might as well merge this and all related articles into house. Rl 12:13, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I undid the merge. Both articles need work. Rl 12:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Passive Solar Design

wouldn't that be a better name for the article? --naught101 04:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] solar technologies

are they really cost effective -- 210.212.165.136

That's not a very meaningful question. Wheat, corn and cocoa are grown using solar technologies, so the answer is yes. njh 08:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] first passive solar house in the US

The first passive solar house in the US was designed in 1940 by George F. Keck for a Chicago area real estate developer named Howard Sloan. Keck had designed an all-glass house for the 1933 Century of Progress Exposition in Chicago and was surprised to find that it was warm inside on sunny winter days, even though the furnace hadn't been installed yet. Keck was not aware of the research being done elsewhere on solar architecture, but he gradually started incorporating more south-facing windows into his designs for other clients, and by 1940 he had learned enough to design a passive solar house for Sloan.

I'm puzzled that it took so long. Conservatories were a standard feature in edwardian manors in the last 19th C. Surely other people had attached greenhouses they used for heating?--njh 23:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on cleanup and where this article needs to head.

Plenty of people here dont know what the words 'passive' and 'solar' mean. This is not a general article on 'sustainability in architecture'.
Please provide sources for your data. Otherwise it should really be deleted. Several statistics on this page were unsourced, and probably came from very one sided sources.
Most importantly, what we need here is an explanation of the principles of passive solar design and the circumstances in which different techniques may be used, rather than launching into specifics of how these may be applied in specific situations ('One technique buries water-proof insulation in 7-metre skirts around the foundation, and buries loops of plastic pipe or ducts under the foundations and slab', etc.).
Where do the lists of 'types' and 'techniques' come from? Who says there are 3 of each?
why do we have that example there? is it even part of What wikipedia is?

Any comments please provide. Otherwise i'll probably do some more cleanup/editing myself Miscreant 07:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

The article on Passive Solar Design has straight-forward and easy to understand content. The introduction and graphics are noteworthy. The referencing begins out strong, but ends up overall minimal. A citation is needed in the "Pragmatic Passive Solar Energy Use" section. I got lost in the section entitled, "Minimal Machinery" because of the wealth of undefined terms. The article ended strong with a reference to noted solar designers. Sierra 00:49, 15 March 2007

[edit] Major re-edit

The content has been widely expanded and includes some useful information. However, there are several examples of subjective and non-factual phrases that are peacock or weasel words that undermine the quality and objectivity of the article. 'Arguably the best', 'The worst', 'is not difficult', 'state of the art', 'bright and cheerful', 'full of bad habits', 'extremely bad', 'uninformed','superior solution', 'many ways', 'really CLUNKY', 'lack of motivation'. The facts should speak for themselves and the reader should be able to arrive at their own conclusions. There is also use of capitalization to emphasize points that is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. The article reads less like an encyclopaedia entry and more like a opinion piece. The format suspiciously follows the Zero Energy Design website which appears to be a commercial site and incorporate information found elsewhere on Wikipedia.

Dymonite (talk) 06:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed wholeheartedly. This article is beyond the point of ridiculous. The problem of course is that there are far too many people contributing information that they think adds to the article, but really just confuses and obfuscates from anyone reading the article actually comprehending the subject matter. Miscreant (talk) 11:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Some of the unencylopaedic language as been improved in the last series of edits but it still reads like an editorial. It would be helpful for the author with ISP 71.51.68.228 to log in prior to his entries and to sign the discussion/talk page with 4 tildes to ensure the flow of the discussion.

Dymonite (talk) 09:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trombe Wall

I disagree with pushing the obsolete problematic Trombe wall It is a historical reference, but not recommended in today's passive solar building design. Escientist (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

there are only two inline references to the trombe wall in the article. i don't see how that can be interpreted as "pushing" the technology. the inline text also notes that it's obsolete (your addition?). Anastrophe (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ongoing clean up effort

I am actively trying to clean up some of the previous, valid, editorial comments on this potentially-valuable Wikipedia page. I see some of what clearly needs to be done, but I have a finite amount of time to work on it for free. I think the request to expand "Sun Path" is a good idea, and I have plenty of resources to do so. If you are a qualified subject matter expert with specific suggestions, details or feelings, I would enjoy collaborating with you. Please see my profile Escientist (talk) 16:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

as long as all added material is properly sourced, you'll find that your fellow editors will welcome your contributions, and collaboration. please note also that new comments on talk pages are traditionally added to the bottom of the page. I've refactored this section with that in mind. Anastrophe (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other passive solar design techniques

Whilst modelling software may help in achieving an optimal solution, I think the tone of the article suggests passive solar is high-tech and generally in-accessible to the mainstream building industry. In most medium density developments there are a number of other constraints which prevent reduce the ability to achieve a perfect arrangement e.g. block size and orientation, obstructions, building regulations, owner's needs and preferences. Successful passive solar buildings have been built based only on a set of rule of thumbs and a little local research without resorting to computer algorithms. Perhaps some references to these principles i.e. orientation angles and latitudes, glazing areas/ratios, prevailing winds, climactic zone classifications, eave length calculations would be useful. It would be far better if a large proportion of residences were designed around good principles than a small proportion making full use of computer software.Dymonite (talk) 00:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zero Energy Building

I think a point needs to be made that ZEB is a completely integrated application of passive solar principles but other passive solar houses make variable use of all the available concepts and technologies.

It may worthwhile knowing if the effects are purely additive or synergistic (with appropriate data supplied to indicate this)Dymonite (talk) 00:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Insulation

The recent edit, which stated that conductive/convective insulation is used to reduce radiant heat flow, was scientifically incorrect. Radiant barriers (like aluminimum foil) are often VERY conductive. Fiberglass insulation (spun glass) is translucent to radiation (afterall, it is just glass). Different insulation types must be used in different applications (upward, downward, and horizontal heat transfer). Radiation is by far more important is hot climates than conduction or convection. I added this earlier, but it was deleted. Please, if you do not understand the science, let's discuss it here before you insert any more false statements, or delete valid ones. Escientist (talk) 14:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Just an ambiguous statement on my part. I meant to say don't mismatch the modes of transfer - for instance using a convective insulator to stop radiant barrier. Building insulation explains this in more detail.Dymonite (talk) 09:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Direct vs indirect vs isolated gain strategies

There are some controversies surrounding this topic. Direct gain is the simplest and most intuitive of passive solar designs. Indirect and isolated gain are more complex systems which are reliant on adequate heat storage and distribution to function effectively. Heat distribution systems have been designed passively (natural convection) or actively (forced convection). There appears to a scarcity of research on direct comparisons for each design and their relative efficiencies or cost-effectiveness. On other occasions there are mixed reports on the benefits of certain designs e.g. double envelope (double shell, thermal envelope, thermal buffer zone) and this needs to be shown. Dymonite (talk) 09:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The current section currently needs clean-up to ensure any information is supported by robust primary research and be equally balanced by positive and negative reportsDymonite (talk) 09:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Lee Porter Butler's Double Shell thermal envelope design received wide publicity after the U.S. solar energy tax credits were created in 1978. Versions were on the cover of Better Homes and Gardens and Popular Science magazines. Lee misunderstood how and why his accidental discovery worked. He had an (unnecessary) rock bed under the house to store daytime heat (it actually interfered with the geothermal effect). He used a lot of inefficient roof-angled glass, which created a solar furnace in the summer and lost heat in the winter. He often had a south-side porch that shaded the lower floor where solar gain was needed the most. He wasted a foot-and-a-half of space for the double north wall. He created a fire hazard. He used a fireplace that drew in unconditioned outside air for combustion, and exhausted heat up the chimney. He also falsely claimed that it would work everywhere (which is obviously false near the poles). He was discredited by scientific performance monitoring. I corrected 100% of Butler's design erros in my first Zero Energy Home (that I built for myself in 1979), and became the largest exhibitor and most popular speaker in the National Energy Expos three decades ago, and the latest DOE / ORNL International Buildings Conference Passive Solar Heating and Cooling Workshop.

This information would be ideal for the Wikipedia's Passive Solar HistoryDymonite (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Due to the bad press that Butler generated, I do not advertise "double shell", but my work is an extension and refinement of it. I don't want to bring up the Butler controversy again, since I have NEVER designed in ANY of his documented errors, although natural convection is the very best known way to transport excess heat from a solarium to the cold side of a building in the winter, AND it acts as a thermal buffer zone (TBZ) year round - "Two small delta T's are better than one large delta T." The TBZ is self regulating by pressure differentials created when warm air rises and cool (more dense) air falls. It is the superinsulating effect of the double shell TBZ that explains why indirect solar gain is far superior to any direct solar gain envelope design pattern.

On a clear winter day, my pant legs flap in a strong breeze next to a 50 foot long, one-foot-high air vent. My swimming pool room solarium transports over 2 million BTU's of heat to make the north side of my first ZEB home toasty warm. I figured I would never get this info past the current Wikipedia editors in a useful form. Passive Solar Energy Info Maybe someone else wants to try. The precise details are explained in many diagrams on my 800-page Zero Energy Design eBook and hundreds of DOE / ORNL workshop slides Escientist (talk) 14:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This information would be ideal for the Wikipedia's Passive Solar HistoryDymonite (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Some have argued that the part of the efficiency of this is also related to the higher combined R-values of the two sections. There needs to be mention of additional cost for double envelope systems and its generalizability and scalability to all projects. e.g. Would the above design be just as effective without the thermal mass of the swimming pool or in any climate. It would be easier to get this into Wikipedia if it is shown that this model has been validated by independent measurement data. Perhaps we need to have separate section on once-off experimental designs which have shown anecdotal success but there are no other examples to validate the design in all conditions and situations. There also should be some comments about the challenges or issues with such a design.Dymonite (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be easier to get this into Wikipedia if it is shown that this model has been validated by independent measurement data. Perhaps we need to have separate section on once-off experimental designs which have shown anecdotal success but there are no other examples to validate the design in all conditions and situations. There also should be some comments about the challenges or issues with such a design.Dymonite (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The higher combined R-value is most certainly correct, but the TBZ is also tempered by solar gain in the winter daytime, and by ambient Earth heat from under the floor (and any added thermal mass) on winter nights. My 1979 swimming pool home used R 0.9 single pane patio door glass, on the outside AND inside of the solarium. Many of my home designs have a hot tub, swim spa, or narrow swimming pool in the multi-purpose solarium.A movable walk-on floor usually covers any interior water features, to control interior humidity. The temperature of my solariums usually never dropped below 59-to-60 degrees F when it was -10 outside, and it never once got above 88, when it was 110 outside. The performance of the very-low-cost TBZ is outsdanding, AND it is key to the thermal performance of all of my many proven designs.

In the summer, top vents are opened and ambient temperature Earth is used to cool and dehumidify fresh intake air from under the floor. The TBZ (including the attic) never reaches the peak outside air temperature. My application of heat transfer science is certainly not a one-off accident. I've designed hundreds of successful ones in the last three decades, with iterative refinementes each time. I have NEVER designed a home that has conventional utility bills. Over 100,000 homes demonstrate at least a small portion of the design patterns that I use.

I have no personal motivation to fight the Wikipedia editors and have them then dilute and invalidate many of my statements on this subject. My 800-page book and DOE Workshop slides do the best job I could without other peoples' "help." I've donated the basics of my acquired skills to Wikipedia, but my popular published details and construction diagrams are copyrighted internationally. I do train others in how to apply them, but not for free. My book is my life's work legacy that others may use to build a better tomorrow. My material on Wikipedia is merely a trivial topical intro, which has been hard enough to make available so far. No one can say I did not at least try. Escientist (talk) 08:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Passive Annual Heating Storage (PAHS)

Like above this issue is controversial. The designs are based on theoretical grounds that solar energy can be stored over the course of one season to be released at another. The designs generally use high thermal mass or earth-coupled/earth-bermed buildings. There are some anecdotal reports of high efficiency but not not much formal measurement data to validate this. Again better evidence needs to be cites to describe this.Dymonite (talk) 12:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Solar path technical corrections

Recent edits to my original material in the "Solar path fundamentals" section introduced several inaccurate statements. I have corrected these errors in my most recent edit Escientist (talk) 13:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Double Shell History

OK, you talked me into it. I added a generic public-domain summary version of Lee Porter Butler's work, and my own refinements to it in "Passive solar design history", as published by the DOE and ORNL. If you want to hack it to pieces (as often happens to my contributions) go ahead - I won't waste the time to enter it twice. If you want to start a talk: page about it, let me know, and maybe "we" can refine it to meet editorial standards, without eliminating the relavant requested content altogether. It is just a high-level summary, not low-level details and diagrams. Escientist (talk) 09:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Experimental / Prototype architecture

I suggest that any specific designs which have not had formal evaluation should not be included as part of this article. A casual reader may be mislead into believing that they would be able to reproduce these results.

see http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/research/buildings/zero_energy/lakeland/index.htm for an example of a very strict protocol for evaluation.

These examples may need further validation:

John Hait's "Passive Annual Heat Storage" (PAHS) method Water walls and roof ponds Australian deep-cover earthed-roof Don Stephens' "Annualized Geo-Solar" (AGS) heating Thermal Buffer Zone / zero Energy buildingDymonite (talk) 15:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] See also Passive solar design history

Passive solar design history used to be part of Passive solar building design.

It was moved into its own article.

I added an obviously-reasonable link from Passive solar building design to Passive solar design history, but it was deleted with no talk: or explaination.

I find this extremely curious, and I re-inserted the necessary link. How are readers to know that the new article was recently created, if not by such a link from its original source?

Please explain and discuss the reason you think this link is not necessary or inappropriate.

Escientist (talk) 15:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a link to the article, now known as History of passive solar building design, in the "See also" section. Style-wise it did not fit well in the intro. If you want it there, make sure you integrate it properly with the flow of the content. Barrylb (talk) 16:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "a biomass heating system" IN A ZEB?

Someone added this bad idea to the passive solar building design text. Presumably they are referring to a high-pollution wood-burning fireplace, which pollutes the air, contributes significantly to global warming, normally results in a reduction of trees that sequester CO2 and release pure oxygen.

Getting rid of burning biomass by 2 billion people worldwide is a goal. No one should encourage deforestation, especially not using wood as a fuel in any building, and in particular NOT in a "green" ZEB. I know of no true ZEB with a biomass heating system. If a building has one, it is by definition not "green."

A typical fireplace draws a large volume of conditioned interior out of the building, forcing unconditioned replacement air to be drawn in. Fireplace leaks (even in those that use outside air for combustion) do this 7/24/365.

With your permission, I will delete this addition in a few days, unless someone has a good reason not to.

It is possible to closely manage biomass as a renewable resource, but it seldom is. Global deforestation is a serious ongoing environmental, and global warming, issue.

Escientist (talk) 15:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to keep adding the statement that biomass should be used in a ZEB, PLEASE justify your opinion and negotiate consensus here. Otherwise, I contend that burning biomass is completely contrary to the fundamental objectives of a zero energy building, AND passive solar building design. See the article on Biofuel. Escientist (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Roof-angled glass

Please STOP deleting the references to western and roof-angled glass. They are the most significant design flaw of new passive solar designers, who do not understand the relationship between seasonal and daily sun path, and the angle of incidence of solar radiation to glazing. If you do not understand this critical passive solar design issue, we can discuss it here, or see http://www.passivesolarenergy.info/#S1 for an example of solar gain and heat loss precise numbers and diagrams from the U.S. Department of Energy. Escientist (talk) 20:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Solar Furnace / "Heliocaminus"

219.90.160.205, please check the History section in Solar furnace. The original use of the Greek term "heliocaminus" (which means "solar furnace") referred to glass-enclosed rooms where solar energy made them hotter than the outside air temperature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Escientist (talk • contribs) 12:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Turning lengthy "See Also" section into lists

I noticed the long See Also section. The list here and in sustainable design seem like valuable means to navigate all the information on energy efficient buildings and solar concepts, however, they're rather cumbersome tacked onto already lengthy articles. I don't have much experience with this, but I think making lists like passive solar design concepts or low-energy(sustainable?) building design concepts might help people navigate better. Any comments? Muffinon (talk) 01:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)