Talk:Participatory economics/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Workplace Examples, Valid?

Albert has said he his blog that he doesn't consider South End Press or Mondragon to be examples of "mini parecons" that they're just pareconish workplaces. I think if we're going to include these as examples, more information should be included about what exactly they do that's pareconish to avoid confusion. The lack of information seems to mislead the person he was responding to in his blog [1]. -- Craigtalbert 14:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this section requires further work. I have removed the unsourced/unverified, non NPOV statement on ParIT Worker Co-operative. (disclosure, I'm a member) Also removed links to parit.ca. --Markjenkins 03:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

As a former member of the Underground Cafe and Alternative Bookstore, I would propose removing the Fredericton, New Brunswick listing as an example of parecon. It does not, and never has, cared to even attempt at working within the parecon model.

Historical forebears

This sounds like a cross between syndicalism and Fascist corporatism (minus, of course, il Duce!) It would be useful if the advocates or describers of this system would discuss its historical forebears! --FOo

Fascist corporatism? How? --Sam
FO means specifically the Italian conception of fascism, and strictly as to the economic aspects. Of course, the resemblance between that and Syndicalism isn't a coincidence either, since many of the fascists in Italy were ex-Syndicalists. Basically, they are similar in that they presuppose a sort of guild system, where independent unions function as the primary political unit. I guess if you wanted to push it back farther you could trace it to Saint-Simon! I don't think this should come as much of a surprise, really, all non-"coordinationist" (planned) conceptions of socialism have inevitably been some variation on the guilds system (excluding mollified versions of capitalism, like social democracy). - Matthias
Critically, under corporatist theory the 'guilds' are not democratic. They certainly were not in Fascist Italy. Damburger 10:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Mutualism, collectivist anarchism, and communist anarchism have not been; and syndicalism differs from the older guild systems in important respects. Jacob Haller 19:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This sounds to me like a fusion of the allocation of goods in democratic socialism and somewhat of a Marxist opposition to division of labor. --Damnedkingdom

Parecon and such

I removed the examples of wikis and free software because they aren't really examples of parecon, whether or not you consider them examples of anarchist economics. I realize that they were there to present specific points, but I thought they might confuse the reader into thinking that they were examples of parecon. DanKeshet 17:12 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

I noticed that there is no mention of anarchism on this page (or at least I didn't notice one). While parecon theory never explicitly uses the word anarchism, it definitely hints at it, and a participatory economy is a viable system for an anarchist society. But I thought I'd ask opinions before I add a mention. --User:Clockwork

I also disagree with "an alternative to other systems such as capitalism and socialism", particularly the last word. Socialism is a broad term encompassing everything from social democracy to Marxism to anarchism (with which, as I have said, I believe ParEcon to be a compatible system). I would rather say that it's an alternative to coordinatorism, the term the authors use most frequently. --User:Clockwork

I believe it now reads "centrally planned socialism or coordinatorism". --Fluxaviator 8 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)


Parecon is certainly a viable anarchist economic system, if not the only viable one. Albert, I've noticed, prefers not to refer to it under this banner because of the need to emphasise its newness. I have to agree with him on the newnews which is why I think any attempt to mix and match it with other systems is not useful. I'm especially perplexed by the mention of fascism in regard to parecon. Anyway, from what I've read of his and Hanhel's stuff I wouldn't be surprised if Albert one day becomes known as one of the greatest economic visionaries in history. --Christiaan

Potential criticism section of parecon

Initial comments

Hi, I just finished adding the new "Criticisms of parecon" section. I'm cool with edits and really look forward to hearing answers to my criticisms. However, please don't respond with out-and-out deletion. I feel that my criticisms are valid because parecon people are always talking about it being such a realistic alternative; my criticisms pull in real-world issues that I have yet to find addressed in the parecon writings.

So if you find outright errors in my comments, I'm cool with any edit you do. However, on debateable issues, I would request some cordial discussion on the talk pages. The parecon writings have always struck me as open-minded and honest (albeit incomplete) so I expect much the same from its fans on Wikipedia (but without the incompleteness).

WpZurp 20:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi WpZurp,
Wikipedia is not a place for original research. If your criticisms have been offered before, especially in a reproducible format (e.g. a book or a journal article), then we should summarize and cite. Otherwise, they don't belong here. DanKeshet 22:08, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I was wondering if my criticisms were original research. I haven't found these criticisms elsewhere and I'm curious as to how parecon responds to them. I don't really feel that what I wrote was original research. I'm not really "making stuff up" but, rather, writing down obvious points about parecon.
I browsed the no original research article and I had the impression that "original research" was about making a whole new concept like, say, if I was proposing parecon myself for the first time rather than adding to an established idea. Anyway, I suppose these criticisms are "viewpoints" although I don't feel I'm expressing views but simply raising issues/questions for others to judge. Personally, I have no fixed opinions but simply have questions about parecon.
Still, sigh, I suppose my comments might seem "original" to some people.
Anyway, I'd like to get comments from others if these criticisms really constitute a Wikipedian version of originality. So, for now, I'll shift the section to this Talk page. Does anyone know if there's original research out there that brings up these issues? Some URLs per chance?
It would be a disservice to Wikipedia if these rather obvious criticisms can't be included in some fashion into Wikipedia. The no original research article indicates this "viewpoint" might be included "perhaps in some ancilliary article". Any comments on whether an ancillary article is permissible?
WpZurp 23:33, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've taken another read of "original research" and I really don't think that this material is "research".
A wikipedia entry counts as research if it proposes ideas, that is:
  • It introduces a theory or method of solution;
  • It introduces original ideas;
  • It defines terms; or
  • It introduces neologisms.
Really, I'm not doing any of these. Three of the "research" items don't even come close. As for "original ideas", I'm hardly expressing an idea but, rather, making an observation about what parecon doesn't adress. Possibly, my "criticism" may constitute "viewpoints" but, really, I'm just asking questions because I don't come down on for or against parecon.
Anyway, I'll follow the Wikipedia consensus on this issue. WpZurp 23:41, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, one more comment. I see that the no original research article says:
Wikipedia is a secondary source (one that analyzes, assimilates, evaluates ...)
Well, that's all I'm doing. I'm analyzing and evaluating by raising some issues not handled by parecon. Clearly, I am evaulating rather that proposing some kind of new theory. WpZurp 23:50, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ah, maybe if the section is entitled something like "areas not covered by parecon that are relevent to parecon's theory" and then placed into a separate article. "Criticisms" implies a viewpoint with some kind of answers whereas I'm just making an observation. .... Hmm, I'm still thinking this through so I appreciate comments. WpZurp 23:57, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Generally, I agree with WpZurp. "Original research" shouldn't be taken too strictly. I think the practical idea is, when in doubt, provide citations. We'll see what kind of doubts arise about this material in the future. - Nat Krause 16:37, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Specific criticisms of parecon

(shifted from main article because may constitute "original research")

Parecon addresses many criticisms and does freely accept that certain freedoms available today would be restricted under parecon, just as today's dominant market economy restricts other freedoms. In particular, parecon argues that the benefits gained far outweigh any benefits lost.

However, despite all the flaws of the current market system, many people do receive benefits from the current economy, particularly the ability to earn an income from owned assets. Parecon writings give no sense of any incremental transition from current conditions but instead give an impression of suddenly jumping into a utopia. Any transitional phase may trigger civil war given current self-interest and power structures. Further, opposition will rise up against effective collectivization regardless of how democratic the process. Thus, such omitted considerations leave various criticisms unaddressed such as:

  • Does parecon have money? If so, is the production of money a monopoly?
  • How does parecon solve the socialist calculation problem?
  • Is there forced labor in parecon? What happens to people who don't "go with the program"?
  • With no profit and loss incentives, how does society figure out which products are unwanted?
  • Is parecon geographically based? Is participation voluntary or forced?
  • If people researched and voted on important matters every day, they could vote on what? maybe 100 items/week? There are hundreds of thousands of important products. Solve.
  • how does society peacefully transition from the current economy to parecon especially when many talented people prefer the current system which rewards ability?
  • should parecon interface with the market economy in the long-term if/once parecon becomes widely established?
  • in a world having both parecon and market economies, are the benefits of parecon strong enough to permanently win over more adherants in the long run?
  • to what degree should parecon restrict members from interacting with remaining areas that retain markets? Should shunning, exile, or coercion be applied?
  • how will a parecon society address a brain drain of talented individuals to a market economy?
  • given that parecon will take many decades to achieve, how should parecon deal with sweeping technological change, especially individuals who become enhanced through genetic engineering or cybernetic implants? That is, how can rigid equity be maintained when humanity fissions into different forms with dramatically different levels of ability?
  • how should parecon organizations interact with hybrid-parecon/market organizations that adopt some parecon principles but moderate/compromise other principles?
  • how should parecon areas mobilize to respond to aggressive warfare from nations and organizations hostile to parecon or are just looting?
  • how should parecon deal with people who engage internal trade especially in trade of job complex duties? For instance, some people find rote jobs to be relaxing but find coordinator decision-making to be stressful.

Such issues were rarely addressed during the promotion of Marxism and have lead to the rise of totalitarianism in Communist states. Given the profuse writings on parecon, these omissions constitute a credibility gap in parecon's claim of being a realistic alternative to capitalism and socialism.

WpZurp 23:33, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

By the way, some of these criticism are by other Wikipedians. WpZurp 05:46, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion of the criticisms

For what it's worth, Albert and Hahnel have actually answered some of these questions, especially the road to parecon and how parecon economies should interact with markets. I will search for links, but they're in paper books that I used to own. I believe they're up at http://parecon.org, though. The book I was thinking of is titled Moving Forward and about one-third of it is devoted to "how to get there from here". There's considerable discussion of ideas on how to interface with non- or semi-parecon economies, too. DanKeshet 01:48, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. And if you do find any webpages, I'd be glad to hear back. I'm doing some websearches but have yet to find any real information on "interacting with markets". WpZurp 16:20, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your criticism sounds interesting, and I would like to hear how Albert responds to these points. You could simply write him your critique and I guess he will even want to respond publicly for these are points probably more people want to have dealt with. --mrh 20:52, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I've had discussions via e-mail with Albert before. It's not hard to get in touch with him. Look for an email address on ZNet or the parecon site. --Tothebarricades.tk 02:15, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Many other Wikipedia articles dealing with controversial subjects have criticism sections; I see no reason not to include them here. IMHO, criticism of parecon is hardly "original research"; many people who are not aligned with the views espoused by parecon theorists would immediately question many of its tenets. In the end, a smidgen of healthy skepticism would only strengthen the page, and perhaps even the parecon theory itself. Squidley 00:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are conflating criticism and original research. The first is welcome, the second is not. —Christiaan 21:00, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
No, I'm not. I don't think WpZurp is either. If we are strictly adhering to the idea that everything in Wikipedia has to appear elsewhere, then maybe, but I haven't seen enough criticism of parecon to judge. Maybe the reason I haven't seen critiques of parecon is that parecon isn't taken seriously outside of its "fan base." Squidley 18:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not exist for you to air your judgements. Criticism is welcome, just provide citations. —Christiaan 22:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Chill, dude! I'm not trying to foist my opinions; I'm trying to balance the article. I suppose that I should have used more neutral wording than "fan base," sorry for any offense--there was none intended.
What I was trying to say is that my initial search of mainstream sources, like The Economist, Time, and Newsweek reveal zero hits for "parecon." For that matter, it doesn't show up on university websites, or that of their economics departments--at least not the ones I've searched. It seems to me that parecon is the sort of theory that is ignored by the mainstream. I'm not saying that this lack of attention invalidates it; I'm just trying to point out that, for whatever reason(s), the mainstream has ignored parecon. This makes critiques of it harder to find. But not impossible! See
http://eserver.org/bs/reviews/2003-6-12-04.24PM.html and
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/aut-op-sy/2003m02/msg00274.htm
for a couple of negative reviews of the theory.
What I'd like to see is a critique section that points out some of the shortcomings of the theory, as seen from outside of it. As it is, the page is definitely not NPOV when it comes to its characterization of capitalism. Since the point of Wikipedia is to present NPOV articles, how about toning down phrases like "so-called private ownership"? (What about it is "so-called"?) I don't deny that parecon is critical of private ownership, but the way it is phrased could be improved. And that's all I'm after--an improved page.Squidley 23:23, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Criticism is welcome, just provide citations. —Christiaan 23:45, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Direct answers to the criticisms

Q: Does parecon have money? If so, is the production of money a monopoly?

Parecon has quantitative consumption allowances (based on effort). These quantities could be represented on paper, or a debit card, or tallied at the consumer's council, etc. As far as I know, these quantities do not bear interest. Once these quantities are 'consumed' they disappear. I doubt capitalists would call that money, but communists do call it money and reject it.

Q: How does parecon solve the socialist calculation problem?

Iteration of proposals, which changes indicative prices, leading to supply matching demand at the correct cost. The calculation problem I think you are refering to is the result of incentives for actors to provide inaccurate information, for instance, a plant manager predictably understates capacity to the central planners. Parecon does not have these biases.

If I understand correctly, interative proposals is an alternative to the current market orthodoxy of supply and demand. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

There is some mention of the socialist calculation debate in a "A Quiet Revolution in Welfare Economics" by Albert and Hahnel. Theorists working in the same basic field of decentralized democratically planning such as Pat Devine, Fikret Adaman, Allin Cottrell and Paul Cockshott have all written about it more directly. Unfortunately most of it is available in journals, and therefore not accessible to the public. I think Devine in particular (senior lecturer in economics at Manchester) has had an interesting analyis of the entire history of the socialist calculation debate, and has interesting answers to points that Hayek raised about the virtues of markets for mobilizing tacit knowledge:

"This emphasis on the process of discovery is the major strength of the Austrian school. However, there is a striking paradox in the Austrians' position. While insisting on the universal importance of tacit knowledge, they also insist that such knowledge can only be discovered by entrepreneurs competing in a market process based on private ownership. This necessarily excludes the tacit knowledge of non-entrepreneurs from the social process of discovery and mobilisation. It follows that if Kirzner's criterion for judging institutional arrangements is adopted ("their ability to promote discovery"), there is a prima facie case that market processes based on private ownership are socially inefficient. A set of institutional arrangements that generalises access to the social process of discovery would not only be more democratic and more just, but also more efficient.
The implications of this for industrial strategy are evident. Strategic decision-making, to be efficient, needs to be based on the participation of those who are affected by the decisions that are made. At the level of the firm this means that corporate governance needs to be democratised by the inclusion of workers and communities as well as shareholders. At the level of communities it means that representative government needs to be supplemented by representatives of organised interests - not just managers and workers, but also any other interests which choose to organise themselves in civil society. The general conclusion to be drawn from the Austrian insight is that, in whatever context, participatory decision making is necessary in order to maximise the potential for the discovery of tacit knowledge." [[2]]user:BernardL


Q: Is there forced labor in parecon? What happens to people who don't "go with the program"?

Parecon is an economic model, not a political system. I would hope that a matching politics would take a 'harm-reduction' approach to loners, malcontents, cheaters, etc.

What is matching politics? WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
ParPolity JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Albert has spoken at length about the necessity of any parecon being voluntary, meaning anyone can leave at any time. People may choose to work as little for as much as they want, obviously the longer one works the more their compensation. In the event that someone choose not to work at all, even with BJCs and a positive empowered consensus based work environment in the field of their choosing than each parecon might have a different approach to the issue. One parecon might decide that everyone no matter what they do gets the basics (food, water, shelter) just for being human but if they want anything beyond that they must find a fitting BJC in the society. This is the option I favor but it will be up to the communities in which those people live to decide since they will be the ones supporting them. There is much more about a participatory legal system in the above link on parpolity, very fascinating stuff I think.--Fluxaviator 18:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: With no profit and loss incentives, how does society figure out which products are unwanted?

When the price is too high for anyone to purchase.

Specifically, every one in parecon gets to ask for what they want. Then the consumer councils of parecon do iterative cost/benefit calculations and make collective tradeoffs. Conventional market economies are based on supply and demand. Parecon is driven by demand and has banished supply-side economics. If demand is high but a parecon society doesn't have enough resources to make a product given other more important competing demands, then it won't get made. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Workers councils generate supply-side proposals. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: Is parecon geographically based? Is participation voluntary or forced?

Parecon is agnostic to the issue of localism.

Q: If people researched and voted on important matters every day, they could vote on what? maybe 100 items/week? There are hundreds of thousands of important products. Solve.

People only have input into those items that effect them.

Also, I think that people would rotate coordinator roles in parecon. There can be some degree of pragmatic delegation on less crucial issues in any organization (not just parecon) that has some built up trust. Most people don't want to micromanage every aspect of their lives. Indeed, some people doing research on happiness have shown that the wide range of choices (such as in grocery stores) produce stress. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Coordinator role rotation could be done, but has it's dangers. The ideal is to spread the coordinator tasks out, so everyone does some. Also, there is the difference between expertise and decision-making, which are closely linked in the current hierarchy but could be delinked in parecon. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: how does society peacefully transition from the current economy to parecon especially when many talented people prefer the current system which rewards ability?

Hahnel's new book Economic Justice And Democracy: From Competition To Cooperation deal with this. Basically, a two-fold approach: reform the current system while advocating for parecon, and create instances of parecon councils as working examples.

Ok, you've answered "peaceful transition". As for the "talented people" angle, I suppose the subsequent "brain drain" question handles that. WpZurp 06:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

My partial answer (from memory). Albert talked about the outlines of a revolutionary transformation in "Talking Bout A Revolution." What he said was that Pareconists and socialists should take the non-violent path towards revolutionary transformation. This involves winning the battle for hearts and minds in existing/evolving democratic structures. Parecon could be legitimately implemented only as a result of a clear majority vote. If this victory is achieved then it is realistic to expect capitlists to try to maintain their privileges by marshalling the forces of violence for counter-revolution- at this point appropriate violence in self-defence may be legitimate. BernardL 11:30 1 August 2005


Q: should parecon interface with the market economy in the long-term if/once parecon becomes widely established?

If the people in the parecon want to.

Do any current parecon proponents expect an interface in the long-term? I do know that Michael Albert would like to see the total elimination of markets in the long run. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: in a world having both parecon and market economies, are the benefits of parecon strong enough to permanently win over more adherants in the long run?

I like to think so, and am itching to find out.

I think this question can get a more in depth response. When I (skeptically) read parecon material, I have this impression of rundown 1960s communes where people accept less material abundance in exchange for less stressful work and a greater sense of community/solidarity. Indeed, in Authentic Happiness, Martin Seligman cites research on happiness that shows no increase in happiness once a certain level of material affluence is reached.
But all talk of stress/community/solidarity/happiness seems irrelevent to me. Almost everyone I meet seems to prefer material abundance. I have personally adopted a lifestyle of voluntary simplicity and, in all honesty, I have never seen anyone convinced by the benefits I describe. 95% of people I talk to say they can't live without their car and most say they like their car.
Maybe I'm paranoid but I feel like I'm surrounded by a massive groupthink out there; I believe that the consumer values have taken deep root in American culture. Advertising is directed at people's emotions and lots of money/talent/science seems to be creating a self-sustaining system. In US/Canada, most people live emotionally, not intellectually (and I feel elistist for even saying this). Are things different elsewhere?
Of course, peak oil may shake us out of consumerism.
Anyway, let me reformulate my question. Does parecon promise greater material abundance (especially in the earlier stages)? I doubt it. And, if not, does parecon address the issue of winning people over from the material abundance provided by consumerism? Can you cite references to parecon addressing this issue. Believe me, most people reading parecon think it's nutty and this Wikipedia article suffers for neglecting this issue.
WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
ParEcon doesn't promise greater material abundance, but since it claims to have better prices, and generates participation that increases productivity, it should be more efficient than the current system. Parecon also doesn't promise to save the environment, but Hahnel addresses that Green concern here. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
My answer. Other democratic planners, such as the Cottril and Oakshott, have studied the likely consequences of an egalitarian re-distribution of wealth in the context of a nation-state (Britain). They found that an egalitarian re-distribution of wealth would raise the boats of about 80% of the population. It's quite true that we could expect a parecon to tilt the current balance in favour of possession of lots and lots of private commodities towards enjoyment of more public goods like clean air and water, health care, and community centres and the arts. I think it would raise the overall quality of life, even if this doesn't mean more personal possessions based upon unsustainable production. Consumer culture in the U.S. is highly unsustainable, and the American populace is plagued by numerous health problems which are firmly correlated with their consumption behaviours. (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancers, etc.) BernardL 11:30 1 August 2005

Q: to what degree should parecon restrict members from interacting with remaining areas that retain markets? Should shunning, exile, or coercion be applied?

Again, this is a political problem, that I think depends on the harm caused by the market behavior.

Do some parecon advocates see the emergence of an ethical marketplace or do most/all parecon advocate the elimination of markets? In my reading of some of Michael Albert's writings, he stated a desire for the eventual elimination of markets. Assuming some degree of parecon emerges, I believe that the competing pressures of parecon for mindshare would help the efforts of many people seeking reforms (see Ray Anderson (entrepreneur)). Are there any advocates of parecon who even discuss current/future ethical marketplaces? WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I gotta say, Albert has convinced me that 'ethical marketplace' is a pipe dream, because of at least two huge ethical holes, markets externalize costs and effects onto people with no say, and markets elicit and reward anti-social behavior. But still, I recommend a 'harm-reduction' approach, which could make a distinction between trading produce at a farmer's market and selling farmland in the real estate market. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: how will a parecon society address a brain drain of talented individuals to a market economy?

Partly by teaching that market economies don't pay based on talent anyway, and so that their talent would be wasted.

My question isn't naive and your blanket assertion isn't convincing. The market economy is more nuanced than Marx's stereotype of "exploitation". Yes, passive wage earners don't earn their full potential; but talented people often do strike good deals, far in excess of what parecon would offer. Further, talented individuals can and do extract great wealth from the market especially when they found entrepreneurial ventures. Entrepreneurs are savvy to the significant opportunities in the market; they can generate wealth for themselves and provide significant benefits to society. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Blanket? I said 'partly' :) I'm dubious about whole entrepreneurial dynamics thing, but even if true, that wouldn't make it ethical. Also, parecon could award genius grants, Nobel prizes and the like. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
My answer. There is much overblown mythology surrounding the description of the entrepreneur as the engine of innovation in contemporary capitalism. Far more innovation currently comes from the public sector, often, regrettably, its military wing. The largest corporations are "savvy" and powerful enough to coopt innovations made in the public sector. Scientists and engineers responsible for breakthroughs are by no means motivated by profit as they are motivated by natural curiousity and good workmanship. These traits can be found everywhere, in fishermen and factory workers too. A parecon intends to develop these latent capacities in everyone. A parecon would provide the currently "talented" with security and comfort, the benefits of cooperation and free dissemination of knowledge and technology, and greater opportunities to participate in the management of social affairs.
BernardL 11:30 1 August 2005

Q: given that parecon will take many decades to achieve, how should parecon deal with sweeping technological change, especially individuals who become enhanced through genetic engineering or cybernetic implants? That is, how can rigid equity be maintained when humanity fissions into different forms with dramatically different levels of ability?

Interesting, but since parecon doesn't pay for ability (which is measured by output), but by effort, it shouldn't be a problem.

You misunderstand my criticism. Sure, if enhanced humans agree with parecon, then we are one big happy family and the enhanced humans will accept their place in parecon. My point is that enhanced humans will eventually become so advanced that the difference will be like the difference between humans and chimpanzees. Please read about the dangers of the technological singularity. The idea that significantly enhanced people would blithely be treated like natural humans seems preposterous to me. Remember: parecon is not happening any time soon. Humanity will fission into different forms before parecon begins to spread (assuming it ever does).
Yeah. I'm on the Transhumanist elist. :) OK, but this all would be true of any economy, except perhaps slavery. Or put another way, the fact that the sun is expected to expand and consume the Earth doesn't invalidate the theory of evolution. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Parecon claims to be realistic but makes unrealistic assumptions about the future of humanity. Marxists naively thought that a strong government would be needed intially to fight off the capitalists. Instead, history shows that Lenin and later Stalin concentrated power and committed terrible crimes.
Parecon tries to address the failure of power concentration in communism. Sadly, parecon makes it's own errors with the unrealistic assumption that enhanced humans will accept the equality in parecon. This assumption is as as unrealistic as the Marxist assumption that concentrated power would be beneficial. Instead, parecon's rigid principles will either trigger rebellion or massive brain drain.
I am annoyed with the implicit assumption by many groups (including parecon) that make projections many decades into the future without considering the upcoming schism in humanity (unless, of course, AI or nanotechnology create even greater dangers).
WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm, I don't recall very much future-projection in parecon, except the implicit assumption that there is some chance it Could come about at all. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

It's arbitrary to call a human with cybernetic enhancements "advanced." WpZurp talks about these supposedly momentous changes where "the difference will be like the difference between humans and chimpanzees" as a certainty when it is actually no more than conjecture with flimsy foundations. But supposing that these conjectures do become reality, they can be discussed as ethical issues in democratic fora. If there are innovations in this field which would be found to be beneficial after democratic deliberation then there is no reason why a parecon should not extend the opportunity of their enjoyment to everyone. BernardL 11:30 1 August 2005


Q: how should parecon organizations interact with hybrid-parecon/market organizations that adopt some parecon principles but moderate/compromise other principles?

What Hahnel suggests is that if the trading partner is poorer, the parecon should make sure that the poorer partner get more than 50% of the benefit. If the partner is richer, the parecon should get the best deal it can.

I like this answer. In other words, parecon will use their collective bargaining power against profit-oriented organizations. At the same time, parecon would build solidarity with developing parecons. Tit for Tat. This is a feasible approach that can be implemented even given current conditions. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: how should parecon areas mobilize to respond to aggressive warfare from nations and organizations hostile to parecon or are just looting?

Politics. The parecon could produce and allocate what was needed to wage war, or just produce more stuff for the looters to take (which might be cheaper :)

The Spanish in the 1930s and the Ukranians in the 1920s learned about the danger of powerful interests. They were crushed by Fascists or Communists.
My reading of parecon shows a radical intent to eliminate markets rather than interact with markets. This degree of radicalism will trigger violent reactions.
Unlike the 1920s and 1930s, our world has nuclear weapons, growing surveillance technology, and will have genetically engineered disease and nanotechnology.
Coexistence with markets is vital unless a peaceful means of market reform/elimination can be achieved.
WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think regular folks are so enamored of the market, they are sick of 'let the buyer beware'. The folks with wealth/power are a different story. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I consider Albert's categorical rejection of all kinds of markets as a probable weakness. The individual consumption proposal idea seems non-intuitive,cumbersome and unnecessary. Other democratic planners and revolutionary socialists, from Polanyi, to Wallerstein, to Devine and Fotsopoulos, have suggested a role for markets of consumer goods. I think Devine is correct in making a distinction between (vertical) market forces, which should be rejected, and (horizontal) market relations, and his proposal for a marginal role for consumer markets within the framework of particpatory planning is perhaps superior to parecon. Albert and Hahnel's criticism of Devine's model, chiefly that one could not formulate an accurate production plan because one would not know how much to produce is misplaced, considering that Devine's model uses indicative data from previous periods, and surveys reflecting trends in consumption preferences. Devine's planning may be less exact, yet in its favour it does not compel individuals to formulate a consumption plan for the whole year and is less restrictive of spontaneous consumption. BernardL 11:30 1 August 2005


Q: how should parecon deal with people who engage internal trade especially in trade of job complex duties? For instance, some people find rote jobs to be relaxing but find coordinator decision-making to be stressful.

BJCs are designed by workers in workplaces, I doubt they would allow this type of trading because it directly effects them.

This feels like a rote answer from the theory of parecon.
Trade is an integral part of human nature. Evidence of trade exists in prehistory, children spontaneously engage in trade, and prisoners exchange favors. Other higher primates also engage in trade. People enjoy trading; it's fun. Don't believe me? Just go to a flea market or a garage sale. Shopping is fun for many people; and many of them do not max out their credit cards.
All trade isn't between transnationals and poor nations. Wal-Mart doesn't run every retail outlet. Eliminating trade between concenting adults is as foolish as the current war on drugs.
All the parecon material that I have read stigmatizes markets and free exchange. Ayn Rand's praise of free exchange is as unrealistic as is parecon's neglect/condemnation of markets.
You can't stamp out trade through parecon reeducation. I criticize parecon as being unrealistic for having an faulty understanding of human nature.
WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
But trade needn't equal the market -- people can 'shop' in a parecon. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Hope this helps, JohnFitzpatrick 02:26, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Some of the answers are helpful and I appreciate your efforts. However, some of these answers seem simplistic and feel formulaic. Even though I am being skeptical, I am also curious and open-minded. Some of my comments are blunt but I'm trying to be direct so that I can elicit a thorough response that would be beneficial to Wikipedia. I hope that I am not coming across as disrespectful. WpZurp 05:28, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
re: bluntness, same here. respect all around. JohnFitzpatrick 10:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


Thanks for the answers WpZurp. Maximum Respect. My wording in some of the orginal questions was perhaps unclear or ill-defined, so I'd like to try again, I'm really trying to "get my mind around" parecon.

You're mistaken about my contribution. Most of the questions (such as enhanced humans, braindrain, and market interfacing) are my questions. User:JohnFitzpatrick is providing most of the answers. I'm merely probing User:JohnFitzpatrick's answers. I have some limited knowledge of parecon and I'm largely skeptical as parecon as a total replacement for markets (but not as a complement to markets). WpZurp 01:28, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

On Money: Money is a common medium of exchange. Historically, all monies were valuable commodities being traded. A commodity which is commonly demanded for its exchange value (rather than its consumtion value) is functioning as money. "Quantitative consumption allowances" would function as money IF they were allowed to be traded. Is that allowed? Is trade allowed at all? In Parecon, if I change my mind about my consumption needs, and so did someone else, are we allowed to trade items?

More to my original question: Is the production of "Quantitative consumption allowances" (QCA's) a monopoly? Who is, and who is not allowed to produce QCA's? (I hereby request that in the parecon world, part of my job complex is the production of QCA's).

SInce "effort and sacrifice" are to be measured by someone (the same people who produce QCA's??), who measures the effort and sacrifice of THOSE people?

On the calculation problem: Not all production activities are productive. The majority are destructive. That is, it often turns out that the value of the output good is LESS than the value of the inputs that went into it. If these destructive activities are not abandoned, the total amount of goods available for consumption goes down. This can lead to the near total destruction of material civilization, as happened to the Roman empire.

The way capitalist firms avoid this is by cost accounting. On the market, prices go up and down according to supply and demand. Prices reflect an underlying economic reality about the relative scarcity of the good. Using these money prices, firms are able to compare the value of inputs (cost) with the value of outputs (sales revenue). When there is no ownership of the factors of production, when things are not bought and sold, then there are no meaningful prices. Therefore, one cannot compare the value of inputs to the value of outputs, and therefore cost accounting is impossible.

Does "agnostic to the issue of localism" mean that participation in parecon is voluntary? And, once you're in, can you get out?

69.228.47.7 16:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Q: Would parecon advocates allow a free market capitalist city to exist in their world? (CosmopolitanCapitalist 06:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC))

Straw man

I suggest you limit the article to the economic theory itself and not to political theories or to contrasting economic thories. In particular, I believe the following is a staw man; "The basis of capitalism is the concept of so-called private ownership, which confers upon the owner the right to do with this possession as the owner pleases" 4.250.201.183 12:13, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

corporate personhood

What does corporate personhood have to do with parecon? I can see having critiques of capitalism here, but that particular critique isn't particularly central to parecon. DanKeshet 21:27, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

I wrote this passage, still under an IP, under the heading "The critique of economic freedom" (July 2, 2004), which was inappropriately renamed by someone to "The critique of corporate personhood". The passage presents some of Parecons criticism of private ownership, and, what is quite important as well corporations. It could be, that the passage is too exhaustive on corporations, but I find it wrong to leave this central critique out alltogether; So I reentered its version before your deletion under the better heading "The critique of private ownership and corporations", a variant of which was found in the wikiprocess of the german version of this article. --mrh 23:54, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

external links

This is way too many external links. Wikipedia is not a link repository. Please select a few of the most useful ones and drop the rest. If they find parecon.org, they can probably find the rest. DanKeshet July 4, 2005 15:24 (UTC)

Job Complexes example?

"For instance, someone who works in a facilitation board for one year might then have to work in a steel plant, or in another uncomfortable workplace of his or her choice, for a year, or else would not get a higher salary than the standard for everyone."


Personally I do not see this as a good or even a correct example.

I see the balanced job complexes as being, as much as possible, balanced in real time (i.e. not one year in one job and the next year in another balancing job). So that in this case the person would spend part of the day or perhaps every other day in one job than alternate to the next that makes up his or her balanced job complex.

This example also assumes two things. First that the facilitation board job cannot be balanced within itself and therefore needs to be combined with other jobs out in the rest of society. Second that the facilitation board job is a full time position to be done by one team of people at a time. I’m not sure that either of those things are in fact true.

Regardless might I suggest that we change to another example altogether so that the reader may be better able to understand the general concept. Perhaps a hospital?

--Fluxaviator 8 July 2005 22:03 (UTC)

A hospital is a great example. A talented brainsurgeon in parecon has to spend some of his time cleaning the toilets while the janitors get to operate on patients because tis more empowering. - anonymous contributer
Haha! Of course, parecon supporters would just roll their eyes at this. Yes, the talented brainsurgeon would spend some of his time cleaning toilets, but of course people without brain surgeon skills wouldn't be operating on people. Their empowerment could come from other skilled jobs. For example? -- Kowey 10:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
and how exactly does this make parecon more effecient than the market? (CosmopolitanCapitalist 06:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC))

For example in the IT support department, or as a counsellor, or as a leisure activities coordinator for the patients,etc, etc,etc. Do you doubt this? BernardL 17:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. My mind was just blank at the moment. -- Kowey 17:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could take a job complex from an existing parecon workplace? DanKeshet July 8, 2005 23:35 (UTC)

Perhaps both? One example within the current economy taken from an existing parecon workplace. The other from a theoretical example from a workplace balanced across the whole parecon. It seems to me that this might be fitting since all the current examples are only small bookstores or publishing operations of some sort. --Fluxaviator 20:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it is helpful to think of the BJC as comprised of tasks, not jobs. A job is a collection of tasks; a BJC is the same, but balanced for effort and empowerment. - jfitz

In my view the emphasis of BJC's is somewhat screwy. I fail to see why doctors are empowered vs janitors. People who work as janitors, plumbers and the "less empowering jobs" get paid quite well in many cases and they don't require and education. Why exactly are these jobs less empowering. I also don't see how these people have less political power than doctors. In the Soviet system the planners, bureaucrats, party hacks etc had the power not the doctors, and skilled professionals. Parecon does nothing to address this. In fact it glosses right over this. There are obvious centers of power in parecon: the production councils, worker councils, consumption councils, facilitation boards. Also the various councils and boards which monitor things like how balanced the balanced job complexes are will have a lot of power. The statisticians and IT people who manage the system whereby parecon uses past history to make consumption and production lists easier to create will also be very powerful. Everybody is not going to be on these committees and the people who do will basically be the parasites who will rule in parecon. In India there are craploads of commitees and agencies to regulate and control things and all this has led to is enormous corruption and stagnation. Generally the people on the committes and the elected representatives have disproportionate power in India. I don't see why it will be different in parecon.

Secondly parecon seems to assume you can figure out what you are going to produce and consume in the next year given what you produced the year before. Maybe this was an acceptable assumption in the Middle Ages but with accelerating technological change the future is becoming extremely unpredictable. People have no idea what they want because they don't even know what is possible and they haven't experienced things which don't exist yet. Same with production. Besides this there enumerable unexpected events that can delay production, consumption, etc. For instance consider HD DVD's. Can anybody tell me how many they are going to buy in the coming year. It is difficult to say. It depends on whether Toshiba succeeds in making them cheap, whether the Xbox ends up shipping with them, how cheap the media are, etc. The beauty of capitalism is that it can adapt in real time and based on the available information at the time. Parecon can't. Capitalism can also deal with very fine grained differences in quality, brand, local preferences, local differences in supply and demand etc. Whereas in parecon it appears that these issues will be resolved using statistics and past history. I think this is very unreliable and moreover gives disproportionate power to the people assembling the statistical reports.

added book link

I did just add the link to the whole parecon book in html format. Hope that is cool with everyone here, I felt it was an appropriate link to have since it is the original source for the theory of Parecon.

--Fluxaviator 8 July 2005 22:03 (UTC)

I moved it into a link on the title of the book in the "External Resources" section, a common practice on other pages, such as Noam Chomsky. It's better there because we don't repeat the entry and the Zmag link we already have in the external resources section already takes you to the book link. Also, Parecon the book wasn't the start of Parecon. Hahnel and Albert have been writing about it for years, starting, I believe, in "A Quiet Revolution in Welfare Economics". Parecon is the book that took off, after many tries. :) DanKeshet July 8, 2005 23:35 (UTC)
Great, that's a good place for it. I had not heard of "A Quiet Revolution in Welfare Economics" only the book "looking forward" from south end press. I will look into it. Thanks. --Fluxaviator 9 July 2005 02:14 (UTC)

accompanying visions

I have extended the description of accompanying visions in the other fields of society. The four fields laid out by the authors being economics, kinship, culture and politics. I also added a wikilink to the new participatory politics wiki stub page. Here is a linked source to the online parecon book[3]and here is a link to other articles to support the inclusion of polyculturalism, anarchism and feminism.[4] There is also brief mention of the need for an ecological vision. Should this info be moved to a place below the table of contents or is it fine where it is? --Fluxaviator 08:56, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Interview to Michael Albert in es.wikinews

I see there is a healthy (as well as arguably non-belonging-in-Wikipedia) activity here. Some of you may like to know that we are right now preparing an interview for Michael Albert in es.wikinews. I think some really good questions could be gathered from this discussion page and posted over there, in order to get a set qualified answers (although I do see that most questions were answered directly from parecon-books, which should be satisfying). Feel free to post questions in english or spanish over there, we will translate them either way, for the benefit of both the interviewed and our users. -- 4lex 08:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I am intrigued by Parecon and, to me, most of it makes sense on an intuitive level. I do have a few questions for Albert in regards to the participatory planning elements of the economy.
1) Many critics have said that one cannot expect people to plan a year in advance everything they may need for that whole time. But is it necessary for the planning period to be one year, can it be shorter say 4 months? Or could it be shorter for some, more necessary, items and longer for others that could be considered luxury items?
2) There are some things that are consumed privately or at least that many people may want to consume privately even if we can achieve a society that is open and tolerant. In Parecon how does someone anonymously acquire items like, sex toys or sensitive drugs for illness or recreation that they might not what the rest of their community to know they are consuming? How do these items fit into the participatory plan? Can the requests be sent anonymously by computer and than tallied by region, as to safeguard individual privacy and also provide the planning and consuming councils the general information they need to make decisions?
3) How does the planning system work in regards to restaurants? Are people expected to plan a year in advance what restaurants then are going to eat at and how many times in a given planning period? Or will the restaurants be founded for the coming planning period simply based on their popularity during the pervious cycle?
4) How would food production work within the planning system, would we be required to plan all meals in advance? This doesn’t seem like to difficult a task from my prospective, but perhaps this could be done on a 4 or 6 month planning schedule to make it more manageable. Also how what farmers and supermarkets fit in to the picture?
5) You have mentioned that in Parecon there could still be stores, however if you have to plan your items in advance how does this work? Or is the planning process simply so that producers know how much to make? Does asking for an item necessarily mean that you personally receive that item, or is that item simply put on the shelf in a local store? --Fluxaviator 01:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I have a question for Albert. I do like some of the ideas forwared by Parecon, It does concern me that the system for liberation for the entire world is coming from a book by a relatively well off white guy that lives in Massachustts can define the system for economic liberation for a black woman tenant farmer from rural Malawi. What if oppressed people reject parecon. What if they want soemthing else? I think parecon is a good strawman to get people thinking and a great start but not a final answer. - (tenofclubs from Boston)

The interview is starting to look good. Feel free to go there and post your questions, like Fluxaviator did. About last question/criticism, it is already been written that parecon should not be imposed (if oppressed people want something else, they should try it). On the other hand, it does not try to be "the system for liberation for the entire world", it's just a proposal for an alternative economy (not a political system, nor a religion). However, it's probably still a legitimate question, as most people reading the interview might not know this. -- 4lex 16:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Value theory

I don't see any mention of the underlying value theory of parecon. No economic system makes sense without a value theory. Preferrably one that is empirically falsifiable in the Popperian sense. Does such a theory exist? --Shastra 03:58, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

The main concept informing Parecon valuation is that of "true social opportunity costs" which are a function of various factors including relative scarcity, demand, comprehensive cost accounting including externalities, etc. all integrally mediated by the process of participatory democratic planning. If you want the economic nitty gritty, [Robin Hahnel]'s latest, "Economic Justice and Democracy" is the one to go for. Although the connection is never made explicitly it bears comparison to the instrumental/pragmatist theory of value advanced by Veblen and Dewey.[user: BernardL][sept6]

KDRGibby

KDRGibby has recently gone around adding large chunks of text of criticising any alternative to market economics and labelling them one and the same, ie. it's the same as planned economics, it's the same as Marxism/communism in a new form (despite the fact that implementations of communism in itself, never mind socialism or progressive reform varies widely with many different schools), etc. I concur with User:BernardL that this is not relevant and should be removed, as it is not concise nor does it deal with the point directly, and violates NPOV for undue weight (it's already on his biography, and we can link a paragraph about his views, and only for alternatives in general, not every alternative economy). I therefore think KDRGibby's recent additions should be removed. Please note that he has a current RFAr concerning his behaviour.Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 00:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


The critical sections have not said they are one in the same, but any reader who pays attention will notice that these alternatives make the same basic criticisms against capitalism and markets and desire an elimination of some or all of the capitalist market functions. Again, very basic and generalized criticism from the capitalist camp, especially the free market capitalist camp, suggests that elimination of these variables results in an economy that does not function. These criticisms are thus legit to note...on any article that argues eliminating capitalist markets, private property, wages, prices....

As far as my view is concerned it shouldnt matter, I'm citing a nobel prize winning economist. If you werent so closed minded you can pick up anyone of his books and read his points yourself. And furthermore, most of the people working on these articles of gift economies and parecons and communist states etc are communists of some varied sort so dont be making this criticism lest you be called a hypocrite...especially since you little miss nata continue to call youself an anarcho communist while posting...dont even bring up this point again.

(Gibby 05:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC))

I again point to the discussion on talk:gift economy, where I outline the arguments for why this section should be condensed or mostly relocated. Again, generalised criticisms belong on generalised concepts. If it does not deal with participatory economics specifically, then the general criticism must remain general, and be appropriated as so. These criticisms are legitimate, but they all point to a common criticism, and hence should be linked in order to be concise as well as to avoid giving undue weight. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 08:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I see most of it has been copied to market economy. I therefore think a paragraph or two linking back to that page would be enough. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 10:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

typical you say condense, but your actions show deletion...(Gibby 20:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC))

No, because most of the stuff I removed was already linked to there (that "criticised" link). The paragraph exists only to point back there. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 20:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh also, if and when you do revert, kindly don't undo my other changes, such as the citation of refs. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 16:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Labour Theory of Value

As demonstration of KDRGibby's ignorance and lack of qualification to set the direction of this article one can point to his contributions in the "criticism" section where he describes parecon theorists as holding a labour theory of value.

This assertion is demonstrably false. In their books Albert and Hahnel have argued extensively that the labour theory of value, whether in the Marxian version or other versions, is one of the debillitating myths that presents an obstacle to movements struggling for social and environmental justice. If Gibby can find one even one positive statement clearly suggesting that pareconists hold a labour theory of value then let him produce it. Anyone who has read a fair sample of the material will recognize Gibby's assertion as a hopelessly misinformed straw man fallacy.69.157.241.12 17:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

the statement above was by me...BernardL 17:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks BernardL but the labor theory of value is simply...retarded...and Albert and Hahnels alternative is...equally retarded. I've already quoted Albert on the subject of labor should be paid based on sacrifice (an equally retarded view as the labor theory of value...in effect, almost no different) and subsequently provides NO INCENTIVES for actual hard work. Certainly a miner puts in alot of sacrifice but should they be paid as much as a medical doctor? The MD may not work in dirty hard labor conditions, but where is the incentive to gain those skills necessary to become a good doctor? Albert and Hahnel are completely delusional if they think paying for hard work and sacrifice is enough...furthermore, who the hell determines what exactly hard work and sacrifice are?

My assertions are not straw men fallacies, I dont think you even know what they are. Albert and Hahnel's sophomoric research is the definitive example of straw men fallacies. They create a very weak definition of capitalism, blame it for all that is wrong in the world, without engaging in research to see if this variable is in fact what causes the problems they seek to resolve...

Their work is serious garbage. (Gibby 18:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC))

You are generalising here. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, you can't cite "oh it's all the same therefore I can put this criticism in" because unless there's a specific attack on parecon specifically, then general criticism needs to remain generalised. I'm sure there has been specific criticism made by someone else, just not Friedman. Again, it's not up to you to assume there's no incentives if it's original research, although a whole side can cited, but this again is criticism of alternative economies in general. What you can do is locate a faction against participatory economics and cite them. After all, both miner and doctor play a part; there can be extra training in any field, because efforts to improve oneself count. This has also been addressed. There are debates about this of course, but I am highlighting how Friedman hasn't addressed this pertinently, and thus makes the article go off-tangent. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 18:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Gib, you still have to do alot more reading on the subject to understand the full complement of arguments that accompany the sentence by Albert that you included after the fact. Try being honest with yourself for a change. In any case, Albert Einstein, Pablo Picasso, numerous heart and brain surgeons, human rights and environmental lawyers, and a host of other people of quality would all be amused to learn that monetary reward was required to incentivize them. You also might want to consider the possibility that a rewards system does not necessarily, wholly or partly, constitute a theory of the values of resources, goods and services in relation to one another. If you are serious enough to take a closer look at Parecon you might make a startling discovery regarding this fact. BernardL 23:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


Rational choice theory won't convince you, and the empirical evidence history has already provided us...aka the situations where the elimination and reduction of market economics has eliminated incentives...just look at the Soviet Union in the 70s and 80s well after it was done killing millions of people, their productivity was abysmal. Look at any government bueracracy, like American public education...they are all failing because of lack of market incentives.

And like I said, you'll be hard pressed to find many people who will work for peanuts on something difficult and highly desired by society...and art is not a good example no one wanted picaso until he was dead. But Einestien, if he had recieved the same pay as a janitor, you honestly think he and every other scientist would still do the work? That is an answer that looks like a NO, almost every time you ask it.

The only way you'll find out and believe your system does not work is if you get to run it and see it fail first hand. Maybe one day we can put our social experimental cities side by side, Gift Economy, Parecon, Altruistic Econ, Socialist Econ, Communist Econ, Third Way Econ, and Free Market econ and see which society turns out the best. Do you think an arrangement like that would work for you?

(Gibby 05:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC))
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