Talk:Palindrome

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[edit] weird al song

I don't get how that weird al song is comprised of palindromes when it doesn't form the same words backwards as forwards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.148.225.27 (talk • contribs) 01:50, April 18, 2007

[edit] Nonsense

I think this is some kind of a nonsense page. In each language there are practically infinite palindromes, especially if you also include sentences. Why the list in each language? you could fill a book just for one language. The part of the palindromes in different languages should be deleted and there could be put more weight on the history of palindromes and the way they are used in different languages. --me

I think it's interesting to show how palindromes work in other languages. I agree we don't need an excess of them, just a few examples in each place. As a matter of fact, I find one especially interesting, the Arabic written word for "Libya" is interesting, in that while not being the same letters back and forth, "l-i-b-i-a", but in many fonts, and most handwriting is a pure mirror image of itself: ليبيا I think it's something fairly interesting to show, especially to people who speak English monolingually, and are linguistically deprived. (*cough*American*cough*) --Puellanivis 23:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionary entry

Is this ever likely to be anything more than a dictionary entry? If not, it should be deleted. --Robert Merkel

[edit] Stephen Fry

The Stephen Fry palindromes are from his book Paperweight. I seem to remember that they're not by him, but rather the results of a competition he held in a newspaper column -- could someone who has a copy check this please? -- user:Tarquin

[edit] Ed's favorite

My favorite word palindrome: Come, shall I stroke your whatever, darling? Darling, whatever your stroke, I shall come. (Willard Espy) --Ed Poor

[edit] Koselure Mordni La Palindrome rules - OK

what does "Koselure Mordni La Palindrome rules - OK" mean? Kingturtle 06:27 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

I think it doesn't mean anything. It looks like an artifically constructed palindrome as a joke. 08:17, Feb 7 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Chinese palindromes

Sorry that I have to delete the Chinse palindromes below. There are palindromes far much famous and better.

Source: 回文遊戲 (Palindrome Games)

  • Shanghai zilaishui lai zi hai shang (上海自來水來自海上 in pinyin: shang4 hai3 zi4 lai2 shui3 lai2 zi4 hai3 shang4): "Shanghai's running water comes from the sea"
  • Zhongguo Shan zhong you Zhongshan Guozhong (中國山中有中山國中 zhong1 guo2 shan1 zhong1 you3 zhong1 guo2 zhong1): "In the Chinese Mountain, there is Central-Mountain Middle School"; alternate translation: "In between the Chinese mountains, there is Dr. Sun Yat-sen Middle School"
  • Hualian Yinshuachang shuayin lianhua (花蓮印刷廠刷印蓮花 hua1 lian2 yin4 shua1 chang3 shua1 yin4 lian2 hua1): "Hualien Press prints lotuses"
  • chuan shang nüzi jiao zinü shang chuan (船上女子叫子女上船 chuan2 shang4 nü3 zi3 jiao3 zi3 nü3 shang4 chuan2): "The woman on the boat is calling her children to go onboard"
  • tian shang long juan feng juan long shang tian (天上龍捲風捲龍上天 tian1 shang4 long2 juan3 long2 shang4 tian1): "The dragon up on the sky whirls a wind to roll a dragon up to the sky"

[edit] ψ

As it stands, the english transliteration of the greek palindrome fails. It starts "nips" and ends "psin". Is it not a palindrome, or is the transliteration wrong or ...? -- SGBailey 2003-12-02

ps is one letter in Greek --Charles A. L. 20:29, Dec 2, 2003 (UTC)
This is the letter psi, or ψ. Therefore, nips … psin --> νιψ … ψιν.

[edit] Mathematics of palindromes

I would love to see some information about the mathematics of palindromes. Such as that two are concatenated, they produce another and if a palindromes is made of two of the same word, that word must also be a palindromes. I think that this is far more useful than listing a bunch of known palindromes.

--68.178.20.154 02:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Added some mathematics for your reading pleasure, under "Computation theory". Perhaps I misunderstand your claim that "two are concatenated, they produce another"; obviously aba + bb does not produce a palindrome.
--Phildonnia


[edit] No more English examples please.

Unless there is a famous or historical context, there is no need to add any more English examples to this article. I suggest people delete the mundane or uninteresting ones as this articles really should consist more of the history significance or mathematics of palindromes. Perhaps there should be a list of palindromes article? Asteron ノレツァ 17:43, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this article needs to be reduced to a definition and discussion of the various types of palindrome, with a very few illustrative examples. All the lists should be reduced to the well known or paricularly good examples only, and moved to a new List of palindromes. Shantavira 18:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

  • How about moving most of the examples to wikiquote? That's probably the place if they can be attributed to particular people. Maybe one page for each language to keep the size under control. -- Kevin, 13 Oct 05. Actually, I take that back, hardly any look like they can be properly attributed to a particular person, "List of" sounds better for those of no particularly great significance or provedance. -- Kevin, 61.8.37.17 00:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it's a myth that palindromes cannot be attributed. I've done a lot of research on the subject, and most of the ones in your list can be. This idea has been pushed by a lot of wordplay writers who want to be free to quote without permission.... When I have more time I'll add attributions, but for now there are a handful at http://realchange.org/pal/authors.htm -- Mark Saltveit

[edit] splitting of information

This article is a good example for the splitting of information in the wikimediaprojekts. I think it is more useful to create an article in every wikitionary about this, where the palindromes are collected. -- M@rkus 22:07, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

From the article:

"Some philosopher-scientists report a palindromic relationship between the astrophysical-biological evolution and the experiencing beings that found themselves living in it. It is thus remarked that what goes on in the universe manifests itself to natural scientists as an axiological palindrome, readable from more than a single vantage point. If, through observation of reality - the argument runs - one comes to recognize that mind-possessing living creatures – whether human or of some other species – were used as a means, that is to say functionalized, by physical processes, namely by biospheric evolution and its larger context, then one must also recognize that the astrophysical-biospheric evolution was in turn functionalized or used as a means to afford responsibility to some mind-possessing living creatures. In this way, it is remarked that natural science observes a mirror or reciprocal functionalization, in which each of both realities uses for its own ends the reality that uses it as a means."

I have read this several times - both forwards and backwards - and it makes absolutely no sense to me. Does it actually mean anything, and, if so, could someone translate it into English? Otherwise I propose that it should be deleted on the grounds of being incomprehensible. Matt 13:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC).

I believe the deal is the universe needs something conscious for its presence to be known, and conscious beings need a universe to exist within. Seems cute, maybe. It was added recently. Jok2000 21:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, that at least makes some sort of sense, but I still fail to see what it has to with palindromes. Maybe the whole section could be moved to some page about metaphysics or philosophy or something? Matt 23:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC).

Why not just scratch it from here and leave it to the author to find a better place for it elsewhere. −Woodstone 23:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed it. The only connection to palindromes, as far as I can see, is that it describes a somewhat symmetrical relationship (iff A then B; iff B then A, or something), and symmetry is a concept related to palindromes. The connection is vague and insubstantial at best. EldKatt (Talk) 11:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. I agree with the deletion - now I see it, my summary was clumsy; sorry :-\ What about this one:
I moved the proposed text into the main entry. Also slightly modified the 'genetics' mention in the 'hairpin' comment, as all those biological material corresponds to genetics.200.42.95.189 14:41, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further reorganisation

Since various people have commented that this article was overwhelmed with examples (and I agree), I have moved the bulk of the remaining examples to a new page, "Palindromic phrases", and reorganised the Palindrome page somewhat. The idea is that the main Palindrome page should concentrate on general information and retain just a modest number of illustrative examples. Matt 13:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC).

Can anybody tell me what happened to the "Palindromic phrases" page? By reading the previous topics at this discussion section, it seems that it was deleted by somebody, without further debate. I agree that a plethora of examples was not adequate at the main article, but I think that Matt's solution of a specific list page was a quite good idea... Similar lists may be found in other languages Wikipedias, and they are useful / interesting, specially for the palindrome enthusiasts. Antonio Prates 04:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] symetric palindromes

Perhaps add a little on palindromes that are symetric, at least with individual letters (to quote Bob: "A TOYOTAS A TOYOTA"

JedG 08:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean in which each letter (arguably) has some form of symmetry? I'm not sure what should be notable about this.... -- Smjg 10:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

i know a little nifty one, was it a cat i saw, i think that is awsome! (Samantha)

[edit] Peter Norvig's "sentence"

This is hardly a sentence. I don't think it even has a verb in it. Anyone could write a program that produces a long palindrome by just searching for English words. Moreover, many of the words are names and have dubious spelling at that. I can make a longer palindromic sentence. Here:

Yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey,

..... (hundreds of repetitions removed. PrimeHunter 01:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)) .....

yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey, yet another man named Demannamreh Tonatey.

You get the idea, even if this isn't the longest.

Errr ... I think you've made your point. JackofOz 02:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure? Because I could make it longer...his "sentence" also has "an one," unsurprising for a program-generated sentence but improper English. 67.185.99.246 23:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Funny ... 68.205.5.33 20:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roosevelt vs. Lesseps

We say "A man, a plan, a canal. Panama" commemorates Theodore Roosevelt. I had always understood it to refer to Ferdinand de Lesseps who conceived the idea and did some of the early work after completing the Suez Canal. Does anybody know either way? JackofOz 02:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

No one knows for certain who even wrote that most famous of palindromes, much less what the context was. It was published in a list of 100 palindromes that Leigh Mercer provided over some years in the 1940s and early 1950s. He didn't claim to have written all of them, and it can be demonstrated that some were published as early as 1925, but he also DID write a number of palindromes -- using a series of partial palindromes on index cards which he mixed and matched. He is generally considered to have written that one, and -- I have a copy of his cards -- there is one that says "Panama -- a man a p". -- Mark Saltveit

[edit] Historical changes

I'm new to this, so sorry if I overstepped or undercommunicated.

For one thing, the article now seems to reference my name at the start, which I certainly didn't try to do. IF I did that by accident -- and it's not a way of marking my changes -- I'd love for someone to remove that. Thanks.
--OK, I think I figured out what happened -- I must have clicked the "add signature" link thinking that was how I took responsibility for my changes, when my cursor was near the front of the page. I went back and removed it. Impressive debut, huh!

I'm editor of The Palindromist, a long-running palindrome zine, and corrected several inaccuracies or vaguenesses. to wit:
-- the SATOR square can be quite precisely dated to 79 AD since it was found at Pompeii
-- the NIPSON inscription in Greek is NOT ancient, as far as anyone knows. For one thing, it's only found on Christian baptismal fonts and so it wouldn't make sense for it be an ancient (read classic) Greek saying. I changed that to Byzantine.
-- In Girum Noctu... while a very cool palindrome, isn't found anywhere older than the Renaissance and is not likely to have been known to the Romans. Neither it nor any other palindromes are quoted in classic Roman literature, though there are references that imply that Sotades of Maroneia (approx 300 BC in Alexandria) had some kind of backwards literature.
-- as the small article near the end of this page acknowledges (vaguely), "palindrome" is not actually a greek word. It was coined by Ben Jonson in the 1600s from Greek roots. The oldest reference I've seen in Greek uses the term "karkinoi", a shorter version of the term previously listed.
--Msalt 03:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Blegvad quote

I removed this part for several reasons:
"US songwriter Peter Blegvad coined one of the longest grammatically-correct palindromes: 'Peel's foe, not a set animal, laminates a tone of sleep'."

1) it's not even close to one of the longest grammatically-correct palindromes, even among the ones on this page
2) it's not clear it's part of a song, hence very tenuous for it to be in the music section
3) is it even grammatically correct? I guess you could argue that it's grammatically correct though meaningless, but so what? There are many, many palindromes longer and both grammatically and logically correct. EG Peter Hilton's "Doc, note -- I dissent. A fast never prevents a fatness! I diet on cod." --Msalt 03:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese poem palindrome?

The following Chinese poem appears under "Palindromes in languages with different writing systems":

枯眼望遙山隔水，往來曾見幾心知。壺空怕酌一杯酒，筆下難成和韻詩。迷路阻人離別久，訊音無雁寄回遲。孤燈夜守長寥寂，夫憶妻兮父憶兒。

I speak no Chinese, but this is obviously not a palindrome in characters. Is it a palindrome in sounds? If so then it's in the wrong place because this section is, as it says at the start, concerned with sequences of characters that remain the same when reversed. If not, then what is it? Matt 20:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC).

Beyond that, what encoding is it? I have been unable to read it in UTF-8 or any of the Chinese encodings. Am I missing something? -Nulbyte 00:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extended 'A man'... Guy Steele

I didn't add this to the main page, as I see there is some discussion about having too many examples already, but thought you may enjoy/consider this.

"A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal-- Panama!"

Guy Steele

[edit] Nonsensical translation of Chinese palindrome

Currently the article contains this bit:

枯眼望遙山隔水，往來曾見幾心知。壺空怕酌一杯酒，筆下難成和韻詩。迷路阻人離別久，訊音無雁寄回遲。孤燈夜守長寥寂，夫憶妻兮父憶兒。 Translation: Litter look up Yaoshan lining between saw several foreigners. Afraid discretionary pot empty glass of wine, described as difficult and rhyme poems. Stop people long separated from their labyrinth, trying to appear later returning geese. Lamp by long lonely night, the husband and wife, you recalled the father recalled abuse.

The English translation is nonsensical and, in some places, incorrect. As it adds nothing to the article, I propose removing the translation. Bhamv 13:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

  • It's total gibberish. I've removed it. BUT ... as per my earlier question, can someone please explain in what way this is a palindrome? Matt 14:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The article pretty much explains it. The poem is a form of Chinese literature called 回文詩 (literal translation would be Returning Text Poem), which is called Palindromic Poetry in English, if the article is to be trusted. Basically, it's a poem that makes grammatical sense when read forward or backwards. Since the Chinese written language is built up of individual characters instead of words composed of letters, it's comparatively easier to write such a poem.
Though the contents of the two versions of the poem are similar, due to the same characters being used, it's not a palindrome in the strictest sense of the term since the forward and backward readings are not identical. However, in the context of palindromes in non-English languages, it probably still has some value in the article. Bhamv 01:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The article explains what a palindrome is. It doesn't seem to explain how this sequence of Chinese characters is palindromic. If I start at the right hand end of the sequence and read towards the left, there is nothing in common with the sequence read left to right. SO ... as per Matt's earlier question, can someone please explain in what way this is a palindrome? --King Hildebrand 22:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it's related to Dimwell arrhythmic rhyming slang, as promulgated by Junior Postman Tolliver Groat in Terry Pratchett's Going Postal? --King Hildebrand 22:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that "palindromic" is a misnomer, and that these so-called "palindromic poems" do not actually have to be palindromes at all. I have tried to clarify the text. Matt 23:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Umm...

I think these palindromes should be deleted as they are err... not very... good to see. But as I am a new user, I dare not delete them, in case these are actually allowed on Wikipedia:

  1. Kay, a red nude, peeped under a yak.
  2. Anal sex at noon taxes Lana.
  3. Naomi, sex at noon taxes, I moan.

Anyway, I added a palindrome and I have an interesting math palindrome: 203313x657624=426756x313302

Littleghostboo[ talk ] 11:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Examples of palindromes, unless they are specifically illustrating a point made in the article, should go into one of the "list" articles linked to at the top of the page. Otherwise this article just gets swamped by examples. Accordingly I have moved the list from here to Palindromic Phrases (English), apart from one or two that seemed very poor (and quite a few were already there anyway...) Matt 21:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Google Translator


Well, Google Translator computed that the translation was correct. Am I missing something? ?_?
Sklocke 14:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Several things. Firstly, machine translation is notoriously unreliable. Secondly, Google Translator only converts simplified Chinese while the poem is in traditional Chinese. Thirdly, this is a poem from the Song dynasty (around 1000 years ago), and language/grammar conventions have changed since then, not to mention the artistic liberties poets take with grammar, and Google Translator is aimed at modern Chinese with proper grammar.
Actually, now that I know where that translation came from, it explains a lot. As a native speaker of Chinese, I can say with certainty that the translation doesn't make sense, and should be removed. Bhamv 14:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fun erongi lol pop n ->

Hey, I like it, it's cute. But, like Notlob, it don't work. Why? Because of the angle brackets. If you are trying to make a character-level palindrome, then you should have the self-same character in position n reading forwards or backwards. Substituting ">" for "<" and vice versa, while enhancing the visual palindromicity (see Hapax legomenon and Nonce word) it breaks the rules. Leave it in there, but accept that it's not actually quite palindromic! --King Hildebrand 23:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Get rid of Polish Section

It's irrelevant in an English-Language Wikipedia. There's a Polish Wikipedia - talk about it there. Youaredj 00:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I strongly believe the Polish, German, Latin, Hebrew, and Finnish palindromes are relevant to an educated English speaker. We should also include mention of Georges Perec's poem in French, though it appears as a pair of semordnilaps. –Dan Hoey 18:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew palindrome - transliteration

Coming from a fluent Hebrew speaker, the translation from this excerpt:

A palindrome with the same property is the Hebrew palindrome "פרשנו רעבתן שבדבש נתבער ונשרף", (PRShW R`BTN ShBDBSh NTB`R WNShRP, or "parashnuw ra`abtan shebadbash nitba'er wenishrap"), meaning "We explained the glutton who is in the honey was burned and incinerated", by Ibn Ezra, referring to the halachic question as to whether a fly landing in honey makes the honey non-kosher.

Should be Parashnu ra'avtan shebadvash nitbaer venishraf. ~User:Hangfromthefloor 20:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The running-text version appears to be mangled (not a palindrome), and no longer agrees with the word square in the diagram. This is only partially due to the problem with line breaks in right-to-left text included in left-to-right text, and may be due to context-dependent letter forms. Perhaps the square would best be done as a wikitable and the running-text version omitted if cannot be fixed to be independent of browser width. I tried to make a wikitable, but I can't figure out how to deal with right-to-left characters. –Dan Hoey 18:36, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] George Crumb

George Crumb also used musical palindrome to text paint the Federico Garcia Lorca poem "¿Porque naci?", the first movement of three in his fourth book of Madrigals.

The poem being referred to is called "Canción del Naranjo Seco", but if it's only a few lines maybe that should be made clear. However, I don't really have any idea what the sentence is talking about so I won't change it. Here's a reference at George Crumb's own site: http://www.georgecrumb.net/comp/madrig-t.html. --Galaxiaad 04:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Broken Link in Page

Hrmm... The link under "Types of Palindrome / Symmetry by Lines" (leading to http://www.barryland.com/canon.html) referring to Gödel, Escher, Bach is expired. I don't know of the contents of this page, nor do I know of any sources to recover said content, but if anyone can provide a sufficient replacement link it would be quite helpful. --Daisenji 04:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC) (When did Wiki implement vandalism precautions? Nifty...)

[edit] Interstate 94 in San Diego!?

Interstate 94 doesn't run through or even near San Diego! Interstate 94 is a high, even, 2-digit number, meaning it has to run through northern parts of the country, and it does. It's the second-highest 2-digit interstate, making it the second-most ridiculous even number you could put on an interstate in San Diego!

Enough blathering- what may actually help you is knowing that San Diego is home to Interstates 8, 5, 15, and 805. Also in the San Diego area are other interstate-standard freeways, such as California Routes 52, 56, 125, and 163.

Paul the map guy 18:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)paul_the_map_guy

[edit] Morse Code Palindrome

Not sure it's worthy of inclusion, but in the late 1970's I read about a contest (perhaps in Omni or Scientific American) to find the longest Morse Code Palindrome. I wrote a program for the Apple II which would take a word I typed in, convert it to Morse Code, and then see if it was the same backwards and forwards. Not being fluent in Morse Code, I simply took a hardcopy dictionary (the only kind I had in them days), and started at "a". I got as far as "aerometer" which I remember to this day as being the longest one I found before I got tired of the whole thing. The winner found a word much longer than mine, though doing a quick google search I can't find any mention of one longer than aerometer (google tells me "footstool" and "invisible" which are the same length). --Guerre 21:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It says here that the longest is "intransigence". That's ignoring spaces... not sure if that's what you intended. Matt 20:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Music Palindrome

The Metalcore band The Fall of Troy has a song with the title "A man, a plan, a canal. Panama." Should that be included in the music section?

It would make more sense to eliminate or put into their own section palindromic lyrics as oposed to actual musical palindromes. Haydn's minuet would make a fine example of the latter. Are their erlier examples than Machault's Ma fin est mon commencement?

[edit] Accents in Spanish

A couple of the Spanish palindromes are missing accents: "Dábale arroz a la zorra el abad" and "La ruta nos aportó otro paso natural". Should they, because it's wordplay, just be omitted for the article? I'm not a native speaker, but it seems kind of poor form. (And, all the Google hits for "la ruta nos aporto" - Spanish-language hits - seem to have the accent on.) I'm going to put them in, and if someone disagrees, they can take them back out. (And if that's poor Wikipedia etiquette for any reason, sorry - I don't do a whole lot of stuff around here, so I don't know the culture.) Number3Pencils 05:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another kind of palindrome

What is a word like live (evil backwards) called? I read somewhere that it too is a palindrome, but a certain sort of palindrome. I think a heterogeneous or heterologous palindrome. Something like that. Does any one know? I can't find a mention of it anywhere. 24.182.226.45 02:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Semordnilaps. ALTON .ıl 09:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Judgment call?

Under the "long palindromes" section, the palindrome "detartrated" is [in my opinion unfairly] judged as "contrived". This is in the sentence immediately after the one that cites "tattarrattat" which is obviously far more contrived. --Teebone51 23:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I note that googling "detartrated" turns up many occurrences unrelated to its typographic interest. Perhaps once it was contrived, but it is being legitimately used now. 198.99.123.63 (talk) 23:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Correction to Palindrome article

The Wikipedia article on palindromes contains this sentence: "To celebrate the palindromic moment 20:02 02/20 2002, Peter Norvig wrote on that day (20 February 2002) a computer program which produced what may be the world's longest palindromic sentence,[5] running to 17,259 words.[6]" This sentence is no longer correct.

For whatever it is worth, I have written a palindrome generator that on October 8, 2007 produced 10 palindromes that are about 20,000 words in length (the longest is 20,005, the shortest 20,000). I will be happy to send the longest one to whomever wants it. Or should I simply embed it in another comment?

The palindrome has these characteristics:

    20,005 words (76,836 characters) in length
    no proper nouns
    vast majority of words used are quite common
    no word appears twice in succession
    word use frequency is a maximum of 1% (no word occurs more than 200 times)
    no phrase (word couplet) appears more than once in either half
    no nested palindromes

Like Norvig's and any very long palindrome, my 20,005 word palindrome makes no sense and is not a sentence. However, it does break away from the laundry-list format ("a man, a plan, a This, a That, …").

My program is capable of much longer palindromes, as well.

I will be glad to discuss this matter. Certainly no one should change the article without first seeing my 20,005 word one. I am not editing the article on palindromes myself, since I am a party to the change and because I am relatively new to Wikipedia.

Gerald M. Berns wandjberns@starpower.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.44.55.135 (talk) 21:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here instead of adding it to the article which would have violated Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Wikipedia content should be based on published reliable sources. See also Wikipedia:No original research. The current source to Norvig's palindrome is his own website but Peter Norvig appears notable and many others have commented [1] on the palindrome. It doesn't sound like your palindromes are currently suited for Wikipedia and discussing them with editors here is not enough when published sources are lacking. But maybe the sentence about Norvig should change "what may be" to something like "what may have been". PrimeHunter 23:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response. By the way, I have sent the palindrome in question to Peter Norvig, who thanked me. I fully agree that a palindrome of 20,000+ words is not suitable for publication, in Wikipedia or anywhere else. However, if Wikipedia saw fit to mention that Norvig's 17,259 palindrome "may be the world's longest," then that citation, which is no longer true, should be replaced by a citation of mine. To use that "published sources are lacking" as a reason for not making reference to my palindrome seems silly when I am offering to send it to you so you can see for yourself. Give me an email address to send it to, and I will be happy to do so.

G.M. Berns66.44.55.159 16:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I am just one of a huge number of Wikipedia contributers and I have no special authority over this article. Convincing an editor through personal communication is not sufficient and there is no reason to send me your palindrome. Wikipedia has specific content policies like Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. There are things I know are true but don't add to Wikipedia because they don't have an acceptable published source. PrimeHunter 22:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I am dismayed by the double standard that your responses have cited for inclusion of new information into Wikipedia. For those who are not deemed "notable," a published source is required. But for those who are considered "notable," one's own website is considered source enough. This is an extraordinary admission, which someone at Wikipedia ought to review.

The issue, as it stands, devolves to what criteria Wikipedia uses for determining whether one is "notable." Apparently my roughly two dozen published papers (including two in "Communications of the ACM" and one in an IEEE publication) are insufficient to reach that pinnacle. Please tell me what else I must do to become sufficiently "notable" to have Wikipedia recognize my 23,036-word palindrome (available upon request) as the world's largest. Shall I create a web page and refer to it there? Would that be sufficient? G.M. Berns

See Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper). Maybe I should have said reliable instead of notable. I commented on Norvig and have not made any attempt to determine how notable or reliable you are since it's irrelevant when nobody has mentioned your palindrome and it's unpublished. The only known mention of the palindrome is on this page, and Wikipedia pages (including talk pages) are not allowed as sources. And note that I wrote about Norvig's palindrome: many others have commented [2] on the palindrome. Publishing your palindrome on a web page with an identifiable author would be a good start. Getting others to mention it would also be good, especially if they are considered reliable sources. But I cannot say precisely in advance what will be sufficient, and I'm just one editor. Other editors may disagree and change my edit. A great way to show that you have improved Norvig's palindrome would be getting him to say so on his website with a link to your palindrome. PrimeHunter 23:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I get it. It's a hodge-podge of logic, but I get it. Wikipedia will only recognize something as "true" after someone else who is "notable" or "reliable" has (of course my palindromes are unmentioned and unpublished; they are NEW this month). I will go the personal website route; Peter Norvig has generously offered to link to my site from his, once it is available. Then we will take it from there. GMB 10/23/200769.143.108.52 14:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Good you get it. Wikipedia is not like an academic journal where people can submit new unpublished research for evaluation. We rely on what reliable sources have already published. Wikipedia:Verifiability says:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source.
There doesn't appear to be any standardized rules for valid palindromes so it would be great if Norvig or a reliable source accepted the palindrome as a record (they don't have to specify rules). I have searched palindromic primes where there is no doubt about what is valid. PrimeHunter 15:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I have taken your suggestion. In response to my informing Peter Norvig that the web page devoted to my work on palindromes is now in operation, Peter sent me an email on 11/7/2007: "Good. I linked to you from my page. I hope Wikipedia will take you seriously now." His page that links to mine is http://www.norvig.com/palindrome.html, and my web page of interest is http://www.bernsrite.com/GMB/palindrome.htm. If there is more that is required to bring the Wikipedia article on palindromes up to date, please let me know. (There is also a set of proposed standards for very long palindromes on my web page.)68.32.127.0 20:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC) G. M. Berns

I just saw this late comment and have added mention of the palindrome.[3] I don't think Wikipedia should judge the longest "valid" palindrome when reliable sources mention no rules. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Computation Theory

Someone put the "too much jargon" tag on the Computation Theory section. Does this section even belong in this article? If so, should it be simplified? Explained further? I'll work on it if I can get some consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phildonnia (talk • contribs) 23:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  • I don't really understand it, but I would say it probably doesn't belong here. It seems to be using palindromes primarily as an example to illustrate various concepts in computation theory, rather than discussing palindromes for their own sake. I think it would be better in an article discussing the concepts that are being illustrated, possibly with a link from this article. Matt 14:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.100.9 (talk)

[edit] Russian "infinite" palindromes

Don't all languages allow infinite palindromes? Hyacinth (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, some languages have no writing system and no concept of palindromes... But apart from that, you have a point. Depending on rules for "legal" palindromes, infinite lists of repeated words could probably be made in most cases, and I see no reason to single out Russian unless reliable sources have done it. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Acoustic section

The section [4] added today by Raybrain doesn't make sense to me. How can "I got" be an acoustic palindrome? The reference is apparently just a recording with no claims about palindromes, and it sounds partially artificially constructed to me. I think the section should be removed as original research unless a far better source is given. It's also mentioned in Phonetic palindrome but it was apparently copied [5] from an older occurrence here. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It is rather surprising that a recording of the spoken phrase "I got" sounds the same played forwards or backwards, but this is indeed the case, as is indicated by the sound-file demonstration at the link site (please note that the sound files on that page are visually represented by graphics of their waveforms, rather than the usual written titles or descriptions - the example in question is the 5th example down the list. It features repeated iterations of the phrase "I got" edited in combination with object nouns such as "screams" and "power"*. The triangles at either end of the sound file are the start buttons for playback from either end of the sound file. The five reiterations of "I got" in either direction are a mixture of forward and backward examples. The "I got" phrases don't have a separate emphasized phoneme for the final "t" and in Burroughs pronunciation the written "i" and "o" sound almost identical. Played in either direction this phrase differs only in a slight downturn or upturn in pitch. This is not a trick. I realize that I'd never tested the sound file, so I have just made a very small (8k) mp3 file of just the "I got phrase", which I checked in Quicktime by enabling the "view" option Loop Back and Forth. I works!: http://www.6q.com/downloads/demo/. (I also just made a soundfile of myself speaking the phrase and this is also intelligibly "I got" in both directions, although not as impressive as the Burroughs reading. The piece has been published on CD: http://www.sfu.ca/~truax/cd8.html, and there is a statement from the author: "On Burroughs and Burrows..." http://www.pfony.com/. *The recordings were appropriated from a vinyl record edition of a 1965 spoken word record of William S. Burroughs reading, entitled Call Me Burroughs (ESP) - Oswald has claimed that he met with Burroughs in 1975 when the two shook hands in agreement for Oswald to reuse the material. This meeting was witnessed by Burrough's executor James Grauerholz. Raybrain (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Your full text is:
The only known palindrome in which a recorded phrase of speech sounds the same when it is played backwards was discovered by the composer John Oswald in 1974 while he was working on audio tape versions of the cut-up technique using recorded readings by William S. Burroughs. Oswald discovered that in repeated instances of Burroughs speaking the phrase "I got", that the recordings sound identical when played backwards or forwards.[1]
How much of this has a reliable source? The claim that it is "the only known" would certainly require one. At http://www.pfony.com/ Oswald writes:
I spent an inordinate amount of time constructing some miniature tape pieces, which I call 'Burrows', based on texts as read by Bill Burroughs. ... Many of the Burrows pieces have an odd characteristic - they are reversible compositions, incorporating things like acoustic palindromes (when you play Bill Burroughs saying "I GOT" backwards it still, amazingly sounds like "I GOT").
It sounds like considerable audio manipulation was involved in making these sound bits, and he changed Burroughs to "Burrows", maybe to indicate it was no longer the real Burroughs. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have access to a copy of Call Me Burroughs, the phonodisc Oswald used as a source, so I could check the original "I got" - I suspect it will be the same. But even if Oswald did manipulate the phrase, the sound file is still an example of a legible acoustic palindrome. Raybrain (talk) 14:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if the site provided some annotation explaining these tracks. I suggest you cite this page first and make the link to the tracks secondary. The "only known palindrome" is not supported by your source. --Jtir (talk) 15:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Although I don't agree that annotation is necessary in this audio-centric as opposed to text-centric world where the example (literally) speaks for itself, I think it's a good suggestion to add the pfony homepage where additional info resides. The "only known palindrome" isn't supported or refuted by any source I can find, which is why I ventured to call it that, but since there isn't any support, I will reduce the speculated claim to uniqueness. Raybrain (talk) 00:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Long palindromes

It was decided years ago not to make such lists in this article. Feel free to go back int he edit history, extract what I have deleted and move it to another article. I will not be doing it because the last list of palindromes seems to have been deleted right out of the encyclopaedia. Jok2000 (talk) 12:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is the decision documented? We can do without some things like unsourced claims of "longest palindrome in language X", but deleting the whole section [6] seems a bit much to me. I think we should include some sourced English palindromes, but not a long list. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[7] Under "No More English Examples Please" Jok2000 (talk) 22:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

First I want to note, in case anyone considers this a conflict of interest, that I am the editor of a zine called "The Palindromist" and write palindromes myself.
I believe you are missing the point of that discussion. The important paragraph was "Unless there is a famous or historical context, there is no need to add any more English examples to this article. I suggest people delete the mundane or uninteresting ones as this articles really should consist more of the history significance or mathematics of palindromes."
The complaint was about people simply adding their favorite palindromes (typically all about the same length and unremarkable) in long lists of English palindromes. In contrast, these long palindromes are NOT listed at all, for reasons of length, but described. And it is clearly notable to the history of palindromes that two people wrote palindromic NOVELS of around 50,000 words.
This section could certainly be shortened, but it's unreasonable to remove it entirely. I am reverting the change for the time being until we can work out a consensus on it. Msalt (talk) 05:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I was the one involved in that discussion, and I was the one who spent 3 hours reoganizing the page at that time, and eventually, although I reorganized it, the word list I separated out was eventually deleted right out of the encyclopaedia. In the same manner, I was bypassing a lot of debate, as the foreign language long-palindromes don't belong here. The point of the debate is that this is a description of palindromes, not a database of them, and certainly not in every language, just notable ones. The consensus was worked out, largely without my input, I'm just the working-stiff that implemented the consensus with 3 hours of work, that could (eventually) have been implemented by a simple section delete as I have just done. Jok2000 (talk) 17:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Alright I took another crack at it, removing only the repeated parts (the Finnish palindrome was lower down). I'm still against keeping the Russian bit, but at least its cute. I see that my delete did take out some notable long palindromes in books, and I apologize for that. It appears now to be an text-selection error on my part. I got the impression the section was on long palindromes in foreign languages. Jok2000 (talk) 17:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)