Talk:Pacific Northwest English

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[edit] Warshintun

I expected to find this here, unless I've missed it; the Washington State affectation which results in the state's name being "Warshintun"; other words also have this ah -> ar change (I don't know how to write it in IPA). It's the most distinctive marker of someone really from Washington, or older families thereof, and you don't hear it from Oregonians or BCers (a few miles away in some cases). Also a lot of people in WA and OR have a real "Okie" accent, which apparently came to the region in the Depression. Comments?Skookum1 08:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Washington and have never heard this pronunciation used before, but I have heard that people from the South do use this pronunciation sometimes. My guess is that the children of people from the South that moved to Washington during the Depression probably lost this pronunciation and acquired the current pronunciation [wɑʃiŋtən]. Redtitan 22:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in Seattle & spent many many years in the Northwest, & I have literally hundreds of friends and family members from all over the Northwest, and this page is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen in my entire life. Nobody uses any of those words.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.196.60.42 (talk • contribs) 20:33, August 29, 2006

I've heard 'Warshingtun' said a few times, but only when it's used to make fun of East Coast accents. Much like 'Idear' instead of 'Idea'. I have lived in Western Washington almost all of my life, and if someone says 'Warshingtun', then I wouldn't believe they were from Washington. --209.166.75.105 08:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a friend, born in Portland, who has always said "Warshington" & "warsh" -- but he's the only native northwesterner I know who uses this pronunication. I remember seeing an article published in the late 1940s, which documents this uncommon practice; I'll try to see if I have the cite at home. (IIRC, this pronunication is documented for at most 25% of all speakers in the area with no clear locus where it is the majority practice.) Along the same lines is the faint but unmistakable drawl of some upper-Willamette valley speakers reminiscent of southern American English: these speakers tend to be descendants of Southerners who came to settle in the area. -- llywrch 19:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this page is the biggest load of crap, I too am from Seattle, and I've tended to associate 'Warshingtun' with Eastern Wash and/or Washingtonians of mid-western origins; it may be a historical artifact, but I assure you it's quite authentic. Less so (and here I agree with the comment above) is the list of chinook words, maybe this is rampant in B.C., but other than in the rituals of the Univ of Wash booster clubs, these words just arent in use.

I'm wondering if anyone has noticed the peculiar local pronunciation of the word 'Buoy'? Elsewhere (Australia and Maine, I've noticed) is pronounced something like 'Bwoy' but in the Puget Sound is more like 'Bew' ee'.Hrmph! 20:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I grew up in Portland & the only problem I see with this page is that most of the Chinook words here have fallen out of common usage. Years ago, when I was more interested in the local dialect, I learned from my mother's mother (who had been born & lived her entire life in Portland) that "skookum" was fairly common in colloquial usage in the city, but fell out of use by WWII. The other Chinook words that are still in use tend to belong to the general US vocabulary, for example "high muckimuck" (=hyas muckamuck) or Siwash (in "Siwash college", to describe a small, provincial college). I'd say that the likelihood for any NW resident hearing many of these words is directly proportional to the number of loggers who are friends or relatives, who learned these words from their family or co-workers in the deep woods. -- llywrch 19:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I was born and raised in the Jet City (Seattle's nickname before someone needed it changed to The Emerald City), as was my father. I believe it was in the 50s that somebody somewhere worked really hard to eradicate the R from Warshingtun, as well as the extra syllable from Snoqualamie so that Washingtonians wouldn't sounds so provincial; born in the late 50s, I grew up hearing older people using these problematic pronunciations. And it's different from the east coast accents; I had neighbors who had relocated from Boston.

As for the Chinook words, the Chinook Trade Jargon was used by Native Peoples before the European traders ever made the west coast scene. Place names like the Pilchuck (red water) and Skookumchuck (strong water) Rivers come from the Chinook Trade Jargon. Tillicum Village on Blake Island is another, as are some of the names of the Washington state Ferries. Whether one hears these "odd" words regularly, or at all, depends greatly upon the age of the people to whom one talks. One of my great grandfathers moved between Idaho, California, and north-western Washington in the late 1800s and he spoke fluent Chinook Trade Jargon. The earliest non-Native people in the area were Fur Trappers, whose first language was French; one of my great great grandfathers came west from Quebec in the 1820s. The French influence can be seen in place name like La Push, which drifted just a tad, phonetically, from French for "the mouth"; La Push in located, oddly enough, at the mouth of the Hoh River. And for what it's worth, not too very long ago, a variation of the Chinook Trade Jargon was elevated to language status by some folks down on the Grand Ronde Reservation in Oregon.

Honestly, it all depends upon who you associate with, the age of your associates, and how long their families have been in the Great Pacific North-wet. Of course, if one knows people in the Historic Re-enactment community, one hears words like skookum, kloshe, klahowya, muckamuck on a regular basis.

Just my two cents worth. Lisapeppan 01:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

My family's been here since the 1880s and I'm familiar with all the Chinook words cited in the article, particularly potlatch (and of course high muckamuck is part of General American now). However, I agree that those words are rapidly disappearing -- I'm willing to bet my nieces and nephews don't know them at all, and of course there are so many immigrants (from elsewhere in the US or the world) to the PNW these days who don't know them. So I think they belong in the article, but a note could be made that in Western Washington, at least, they are rapidly becoming merely ferry and housing development names, with the real meanings dying out. As the previous post mentioned, it's the older folks who remember this stuff. I'm not that old but I know a lot of older folks. :)

Regarding "Warshintun", that's not Seattle speech in my experience. It marked one as a hick, probably from back east, maybe just from Eastern Washington. When I hear it I know someone's not from "around here", but since around here is one very specific place, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere in the PNW. My grandparents didn't use it... but they did say "crick" for "creek". :) Speaking of interesting things, I'm hearing a lot more Canadian raising in this area among younger people, but don't have any data to back it up yet. ManekiNeko | Talk 14:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've lived in eastern Washington and Oregon my whole life and I have never heard anyone ever say "Warshington" before, except as a joke making fun of people who aren't from the Northwest. On a side note, has anyone else noted that the term "jojos" (for fried potato wedges) seems to be only know in the northwest?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.20.174.196 (talk • contribs) 16:51, June 29, 2007

indeed, I have noticed that jojo's seem to only be used in the northwest. I've asked for them in another state and have just gotten blank stares, where I've had to say, "Uh...potato wedges, potato logs?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.238.42 (talk) 04:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've lived in Seattle since the early 1970s, and the only person I know who says Warshington is my aunt who was born in Tacoma in the 30s and moved to Nevada in the 60s. But she may have picked it up from her husband because both my father and my uncle who grew up with her say Washington. Sluggoster (talk) 06:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

There were a large number of Southerners who migrated to Northwestern Washington during the Depression years, I'll try and dig up the specifics but I'm pretty sure they were concentrated in the Mount Vernon/Bellingham area, if I recall correctly it's the same area Loretta Lynn and her husband moved to post WWII because they had relatives there.Awotter (talk) 20:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Linguocentrism

PNWers are often steadfast in their insistence that they "don't have an accent", as if such a thing were even possible. I suggest the article include some referenced mention of this phenomenon. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 16:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

That's very interesting, and I think you're probably right that a lot of northwesterners have this attitude, as do some Canadians (who have a very similar sound system in the west of Canada).

Of course, everyone has an accent. It is impossible to speak without one, since it is basically the sound system of your speech. However, I do think it's true that it is extremely hard for most English speakers to identify a "northwestern" accent. Insofar as it is hard for outsiders to identify characteristically "northwestern" features, which might be identified with speakers from many other places, too, Pacific Northwest English could be considered in some sense "neutral". It's not necessarily neutral--it has its own features, of course--but it's just harder for people to identify it as unique.

I suspect this is because the Pacific Northwest is not very culturally influential, as is California. But the accents of the two regions are very similar, so outsiders who hear a Pacific Northwest accent are probably more likely to surmise that the speaker is from California (or Canada) than from the Pacific Northwest, which has very similar speech but less influence.

Not a lot of influence? But early major-name broadcasters like Eric Sevareid came out of Puget Sound, - Cronkite too, I think, and others - who's the gujy that did the 60 Minutes "Onthe Road" segment, and Connie Chung, no?; I'd heard it was because of the neutrality of the accent, the "clean" sound of it, though speaking as someone who lived a lot of his life within 6 miles of the border (in Mission BC) there is a different sound right way in Whatcom County; not as much of a drawl as California, and even without the Okie thing we hear "Warshintun"...but that's more working-class than broadcaster, and it's the broadcast English I mean; I think this is also true of recruitment from Minneapolis and Upstate New York; the avoidance of recognizable regional accents. I do agree that everybody thinks they don't have an accent; it's what an accent is; a way of sounding normal that's different form somebody else's. Anyway don't underestimate the region's influence; and remember that a lot of Hollywood' as accent culture is from New York and elsewhere, and often fake or put-on, too....Skookum1 (talk) 03:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not say the Pacific Northwest has had no influence; I merely tried to show that it was relatively lacking in influence compared with California. The lack of influence is relative. Apparently, it's not enough of an influence for people to go around taking about "Pacific Northwest accents". What did Kurt Cobain sound like? I don't know. Probably just "western" to most people.

I was born and raised in Seattle, and I have only once heard a Washingtonian pronounce the word "Washington" as "Warshington". He was from Spokane. Also, I know a Californian who pronounces "wash" as "warsh". I grew up in Seattle finding this pronunciation odd and unlike the general speech of my surroundings. I think this might be an example of "hypercorrection", in which the speaker is trying too hard to sound "rhotic" so as not to sound British, Bostonian, or southern American. I don't know where it comes from, but I suspect somewhere in the Midwestern US.

Also, parts of upstate New York, as in Buffalo and Rochester, do have a regional accent. It is part of the "Inland North" dialect region (the Rustbelt) and is characterised by what's called the "Northern Cities Vowel Shift". In this area some people tend to pronounce "hot" more as "hat" and "accent" as "eee-uhk-sent". A recent study suggests a pocket of people in Ballard with roots in this region (Scandinavian/Midwestern) have these features too. However, the study was entirely limited to fifteen subjects, all within Ballard; much more evidence suggests that Seattle vowels in general are moving in the opposite direction, as in the western and central US and Canada. (Interestingly, this shows a possible minority dialect within Seattle.) So to a Buffalonian, a Seattleite may say "hot" like "hawt", although the Seattleite would think this peculiar, since both spellings represent the same pronunciation--a back vowel--for him or her. Both Seattleites and Torontonians might perceive Buffalonian "hot" as "hat". Canadians sometimes call this an "American" pronunciation, although this is inaccurate since it's limited to a particular region of the US. The Seattle pronunciation is very similar to that in Toronto, even though Toronto is far, far closer to Buffalo and has more interaction with that city. Inland North speech sounds different to both Torontonians and Seattleites, since these two groups sound more like each other than they do to Inland Northerners.

[edit] Identical?

The sound system of Pacific Northwest English ... is identical to that of Western Canadian English....

Identical? Maybe today, but in my time anyone in Vancouver could hear that a western Washingtonian wasn't from Canada. And vice versa. Among other differences, you heard it as soon as someone said house or about. --Hordaland (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are identical. Consult the source provided in the references list. It is a scholarly journal article on an investigation conducted by linguists in Montreal on the relevance of the U.S.-Canada border to diffusion of American English phonology into Canadian English. According to the authors, the sound system between western Canada and the Pacific Northwest is the same--the phonetics are not exactly the same. This means that the behaviour of sounds is the same, but the actual sounds themselves are not quite the same.

It's the difference between abstract (phonemic) and concrete (phonetic) sounds. You're talking about manifestation, not the overall behaviour of sounds. So yes, American "house" will be pronounced the same by Canadians in deliberate speech because they fulfil the same demands of the overall system, and it means that the same overarching processes are occurring; however, the actual manifestation might be different acoustically or perceptually. Think of it as the difference between an oval and a circle versus the difference between an oval and a square. The oval and circle both share the feature "round", and are following much more similar processes than the square is.

Sound systems are not the same as sounds. Two groups can have identical sound system patterns (phonologies) but slightly different manifestations (phonetics). This means that a Vancouverite and a Seattleite will be showing the same habits in pronunciation, but the actual manifestations may be slightly different acoustically or perceptually.

The study also explains how Western American English more easily diffuses into Canada than Rustbelt English (southern U.S. Great Lakes English) because the "pronunciation habits" or sound patterning of Western American English is already so much more similar to Canadian English than is Rustbelt English. I moved to Vancouver from the U.S. north-west and have never been asked whether I was American or even where I was from. It's just very, very similar. Very. It would truly be splitting hairs to insist on some fundamental difference between the two regions. For example, a person from Detroit might say "cot" more like "cat" to both a Canadian and a Seattleite, because this vowel-fronting is unusual in both places. Vancouver is the oval, Seattle the circle, and Chicago the square. Which two share a greater set of similarities? In Chicago, they're likely to say "hockey" like "hackey", whereas in both Seattle and Vancouver, it sounds like "hawkey" to a Chicagoan, which would be absurd to the Seattleite and Vancouverite, who don't discern between the two spellings anyway. Pacific Northwest English has characteristics of both California English and Canadian English without having the full vowel shift of either. For this reason, think of it as a sort of neutral interface between Canadian and Californian English. Listen to the sound clip provided in this article (the one that this is all about). Pay particular attention to the pronunciation of "Bob". Explore the website and compare that pronunciation to a Vancouver, or even Toronto, pronunciation, and then to a Chicago speaker.

Remember, also, the great differences in Canadian English, especially between east and west. A Vancouverite sounds more like a Seattleite than a person from Halifax, and most certainly more so than a Newfoundlander.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rogue Linguist (talk • contribs) 10:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)