Talk:Overseas Vietnamese

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Too many external links! Problem is, I don't know where to start. - Wikiacc 23:46, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay I edited half of the "Relations with Vietnam" portion, changing syntax and diction to make it a bit more intelligible; but by god, Nguoi Vietnam oi, write better. jeez. 69.231.202.228 17:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest to change the title of the article to English. When I see it on my watchlist, I never remember what Kiều is. JanSuchy 20:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

1 Europe
2 Vietnamese in the United Kingdom
3 Vietnamese Americans the largest East Asian....
4 Vietnamese women marrying wealthy men?
5 Article organisation
6 Vietnamese people in Taiwan ???

[edit] Europe

Should we merge Vietnamese Europeans back to here? Since it's also an overview, might as well keep it in the main overview article; for example, Vietnamese in the post-communist countries really don't have that much in common with Vietnamese war refugees in France, except by their virtue of being on the same continent. (Don't think that "Vietnamese Europeans" is a particularly good title either ... ) cab 01:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Might as well, although there's no reason to lump them all together either, since we don't lump USA with Canada...we should just list them in order of size. DHN 03:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

No objections for a month, so I'm redirecting. Actually there is no content worth merging in my opinion, since it's entirely unsourced, and full of WP:OR about how they assimilate faster and whatnot. I'm pasting the table below in case it can be sourced. Also see pl:Wietnamczycy w Europie (an unsourced substub) cab 03:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is the Vietnamese population in France 600,000? The article says 250,000. Yellowtailshark (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Lacking an authorative census, estimates of the number of Vietnamese in France vary wildly. One estimate gives Paris alone 400,000 people [1]. The 250,000-300,000 estimate seems the most reasonable, as it is supported by both the Vietnamese[2] and French[3] governments. DHN (talk) 23:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Rank	Country	Capital City	Population.
1	France	Paris	600,000
2	Germany	Berlin	120,000
3	Russia	Moscow	50,000
4	Poland	Warsaw	45,000
5	United Kingdom	London	35,000
6	Czech Republic	Prague	25,000
7	Norway	Oslo	18,000
8	Netherlands	Amsterdam	17,000
9	Sweden	Stockholm	16,000
10	Switzerland	Bern	12,000
11	Belgium	Brussels	10,000
12	Denmark	Copenhagen	9,000
14	Italy	Rome	5,000
13	Austria	Vienna	3,000
14	Finland	Helsinki	2,000
15	Spain	Madrid	2,000
Total	Europe		953,000

[edit] Vietnamese in the United Kingdom

Information on UK viet kieu has been vandalised. The illegal UK cannabis growing trade has been taken over by the overseas vietnamese. This is very important information, and is much bigger than the usual welfare frauds associated with these people.

Crimes committed by members of any ethnic group are nothing new. The information you added gives undue weight to a small number of criminals in the UK. DHN 15:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is new. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk) 16:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

DHN stop vandalizing this article by removal of important information. Even your justification is untrue. There are an estimated 3000 cannabis factories in London alone, hardly a small number of oversea vietnamese criminals. This is not the usual fraudulent welfare claims that you come across by these people. You sound as though you know a lot about these vietnamese criminals, perhaps you should tell the Police what you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

Your additions is not relevant because the entire discussion on Vietnamese in the UK is about their cannabis activities. This gives undue weight to those activities. You might as well say that Vietnamese Australians are cocaine dealers and Vietnamese Americans all grow cannabis since they dominate the nail salon market in the US, they can also be pirates, murderers, etc. I don't object to mentions of their drug dealing activities but it must be offset by other activities. Your additions are just a hatchet job. DHN 21:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

DHN: Why don't you add those points yourself? Wiki is an encyclopedia, 'good' & 'bad' points are permitted. If the overseas vietnamese in the UK are famous (infamous) for growing cannabis, then it is legitimate to state it in this article. They don't seem to be known for anything else, but if you know differently, then please add them. I did not say anything about the vietnamese in the US or Australia, but if you wish to say something, then please do. This article is titled overseas vietnamese, the subheading is Europe, of which the UK is the sub-subheading (in line with the details of the other European countries). If you continue to vandalize the article, then you will be reported.

Here are the discussion found in TALK. It can be easily seen that some vietnamese nationalists are trying to suppress the truth about the activities of the overseas vietnamese, which is a topic in this article.

            [edit] Culture of Vietnam page

I am in the process of possibly reporting your behavior to the admins. While your claims are backed up with sources, they are irrelevent in some of the places where you have decided to add them. There are criminals in every society but that doesn't permit you to make blanket statements about Vietnamese traditional culture.

Actually this message came through on the article for overseas vietnamese and not vietnamese traditional culture. This article was on overseas vietnamese in the UK.

By simply reading your contributions history we can all tell your obvious agenda towards seeking out all possible articles to degrade Vietnamese.

The overseas vietnamese in the UK degrade themselves by being found out to be unlawful cannabis producers on a massive scale, harming the interest of the host country and her people, who have shown them nothing but kindness. This is the thanks they get for giving these people asylum, residence and protection from the horrors these people say they suffered in their own country of vietnam. In the UK the overseas vietnamese have now been found out to be the biggest players in the cannabis market. If you know other things the overseas vietnamese are known for in the UK, then please contribute that to the article.

Would you think it is acceptable at all for me to compile 20 articles on whatever triad activities in foreign countries and paste that onto a traditional culture of China page? Or Yakuza? or Hispanic gangs? So on so forth.

Yes; please compile 20 articles on each of these. I shall look forward to reading them. By the way there are also vietnamese triads, so compile articles on them as well.

Where are theses articles, I still can't find them?

Your sources are indeed valuable in articles where they fit, such as your addition of the Vietnamese case in the human trafficking page. But it's clear you just sought out articles and modified bits here and there to try and apply the same diatribe onto as many articles as possible.

It does fit the article on overseas vietnamese (viet kieu). You are vietnamese so you are naturally biased of anything which tells the unsavoury truth about the overseas vietnamese.

Like I said, all admins need to do is read your contribs. history to see the pattern of your additions and your agenda. Not to mention that you've already been warned twice for other vandalism.

BTW you are the ones who are vandalising the article. I shall consider reporting you to the Wiki administrators.

Annamite tonkinese 15:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

                [edit] Vietnamese trafficking

Please stop adding this information to Overseas Vietnamese and Culture of Vietnam. While nobody is disputing the accuracy of this information, it has as much to do with Vietnamese people or Vietnamese culture as triads have to do with Chinese people or culture. DHN 16:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be the first in line to bad-mouth the Vietnamese and their illegal habits, since I've seen firsthand their tax evasion and video piracy activities. But your edits are ridiculous and have no relevance to the article. DHN 15:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, how come none of these were mentioned in your edit of the articles?

They are in fact mentioned. In the article Vietnamese American, gang activities are mentioned, but it's done in context of their other activities. DHN 16:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Your additions are not relevant to the articles and will be reverted. I will alert the administrators regarding this matter. DHN 02:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy by adding commentary and your personal analysis into articles, as you did to Culture of Vietnam, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. .Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[1] "The Vietnamese value money and wealth more than anything. To that end will engage in illegal activities, such as drug production and running, without a thought on the harm drugs do to other people." Aside from that, the sources say that the people arrested were of Vietnamese ethnicity. You are portraying this as a cultural trait. If you continue, you will be blocked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Bananabucket: You are only saying that as you are vietnamese, and are not acting with neutrality. Why don't you help your people by improving your culture rather than by denying it?

The article below is just one of many that shows what the overseas vietnamese in the UK are doing. A brother (BUI anh hai) and sister (BUI ha phu) team, with the sister heavily pregnant. There is nothing else like this for any other people in the UK; for the love of money the woman is prepared to risk having to give birth a convicted prisoner, and have her child brought up in the first years of its life in prison. Yes, they made a lot of money, estimated at US$3m, and lived in luxury, but what for- the love of money? It would appear that it is acceptable in the culture of these overseas vietnamese people for their children to find out and live with the fact that their parents and family members are big drug dealers, that the luxury they enjoy came from drug dealing. It seems that the value of kinship outweighs any thought for the damage they do to the society and other human beings they find themselves among. This is the culture of the overseas vietnamese in the UK, and the culture of kinship. http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/search/story.aspx?brand=EADOnline&category=News&itemid=IPED16%20Mar%202007%2017:52:52:483&tBrand=EADOnline&tCategory=search

If we go by what the vietnamese nationalists say here, then the Japanese would not need to acknowledge or apologize for their crimes against Asian women in WW2, the British do not need to admit or apologise for their role in the African slave trade because only some Japanese and British were involved in these crimes, and most of them are now dead. But this week the Japanese PM has gone one step closer to apologizing, and in the 200 anniversary of the abolition of slavery by the British, they again apologize for what was done. You overseas vietnamese people should realise that what some of your people are doing is very wrong, and they are tainting all vietnamese. Like the Japanese and the British, the vietnamese should admit and change their conduct in the world.

Please read the article on Japanese people and English people and see where it discusses these issues. These activities are irrelevant to a discussion about an ethnic group. DHN 02:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Article here is titled overseas vietnamese. The vietnamese in the UK are a subset of the subject title, thus it is perfectly legitimate within Wiki rules to note what the vietnamese are famous for in the UK. The vietnamese are famous for growing cannabis in illegal cannabis factories in the UK. If you other vietnamese people don't want to hear the truth, then tough.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4757023.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3965035.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5316664.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1939328,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,,1860305,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1772195,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,,1731843,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1567386,00.html

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12256

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6445201.stm

http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/search/story.aspx?brand=EADOnline&category=News&itemid=IPED16%20Mar%202007%2017:52:52:483&tBrand=EADOnline&tCategory=search

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12545

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12841 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 00:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12850 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 00:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12861 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12909

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=12925

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=13000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.215.165 (talk) 12:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Added section of Vietnamese in Great Britain. It does mention the criminal activities of some, but hopefully it doesn't overshadow the rest of the community there. DHN (talk) 21:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=13078 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.205.12 (talk) 00:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no source to say that the criminals are Vietnamese British. Indeed the press reports that many of these criminals are to be deported after serving their prison sentences, which means that they are not British. 'Vietnamese British' should be changed to 'Vietnamese in Britain'. Latest press report also say that these criminals were generally the post-1997 arrivals, which shows that they are not linked to the Vietnamese people who arrived in the 1970s who generally have lived peacefully in the UK and are mostly now Vietnamese British or British Vietnamese unlike their more recently arrived criminal compatriots who are still Vietnamese Vietnamese. 81.154.205.12 (talk) 01:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

If you can find some sources that specifically mention that, I think that information can be added to the article. DHN (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I found a source that specifically mention that they are recent immigrants and have added it to the article. DHN (talk) 01:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7152709.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.205.12 (talk) 15:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The fractious nature of comments here suggests that people have lost their objectivity. I suggest that people read the operation keymer and pentameter papers more carefully. I have found it necessary to make changes, as the article previously did not accurately reflect what was known from these operations. Comments welcome - preferably before changes.--Tayray (talk) 16:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted your changes. You did not cite a source to show that they're "famous for" these illegal activities. I think the wording that they've received coverage for these activities is more neutral. DHN (talk) 01:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese Americans the largest East Asian....

"The number of ethnic Vietnamese living in France is estimated to be around 300,000 as of 2006, making it the largest East Asian community in Europe and the second largest Vietnamese community outside Asia after the United States". Vietnam is not in East Asia, but Southeast Asia. Maybe Southeast Asia is part of East Asia, but that's not how most people view it, and not the definition on Wikipedia. An encyclopedia should have consistency Tridungvo 23:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese is considered as East Asian people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.170.220.191 (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No, SE Asian people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.217.76 (talk) 18:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese women marrying wealthy men?

The start of the article says: "They also include women who married wealthy men from Taiwan and South Korea through marriage agencies". I read one of the major reasons why so many South Korean men marry Vietnamese brides is because the Korean men are farmers, and Korean girls usually want to marry men from urban areas. Another factor, though not as important, is the shortage of women in Korea. I believe this to be true of Taiwanese men too. It's true they are 'wealthy' compared to Vietnamese standards, but they are not per definition wealthy. Tridungvo 02:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

For the love of money.

No shortage of women in Taiwan or Korea. Just a shortage of women who want to marry farmers...Kransky (talk) 14:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article organisation

I'd like to propose organising the "Vietnamese worldwide" section by time/topic. Rather than having one section for every country, instead, divide it up the following way, especially since the per-country articles are all linked from the navbar:

Pre-modern migration (Cambodia, and maybe migration to France during the colonial period)
Refugees from the aftermath of the Vietnam War (North America, Australia, Western Europe, Philippines, China, Hong Kong)
Migrants within the Communist bloc (Russia, Czechslovakia)
Finally, migration after the collapse of the Soviet Union (South Korea, any others?).

This is similar to what's been done at Korean diaspora. Any comments? cab 11:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, sounds good to me. However, refugees from the second category don't necessarily leave Vietnam before the collapse of the Soviet union. What's important is their cause of leaving. The people in the last category are economic migrants, who do plan to return to Vietnam after they've made their fortunes, while people in the second category have no intention of living in Vietnam under the current government. DHN 15:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)