Talk:Osman Ali Atto

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The article does a fair job going through his entire career. It covers the controversy of some of his actions, though I have cautioned in the Talk page to remove the category "War criminals" if he has not been formally charged by any international court or law enforcement agency.

I made further clarification on the talk page of other elements I'd like to see added. There probably should also be an infobox for relevant facts about his life, though that's a "nice-to-have." --Petercorless 13:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC) (edit)

This article does not appear to be notable. See Wikipedia:Notability (people). Also, it recieved only 24,400 hits on Google. --Jmatt1122 00:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC).

This seems to be an example of systematic bias. The resignation of Atto and the other parliment members was a major event in Somalia, and Atto has been a significant figure in Somali politics for many years. I will try to dig up details soon. JoshuaZ 01:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If there's anything wrong with the facts or the language, go ahead and improve them. Clean it up, if you like.S710 22:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ahem. The comments above were made before you added, like, a zillion additions to the article! --Petercorless 00:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Since I put the "cleanup" tag

Here's what needs to happen:

War criminal as a category needs to be taken off. He has not been formally charged in any court which deals with war crimes. The allegations that he is guilty can be made in the article. However, you should not list him as a "war criminal" since he has never been formally charged nor convicted of such in any court.
Clean up assertions bordering on either original research or POV:
- The murder might have been committed in order to destabilize conditions in the south of Somalia. This is speculatory.
- Whenever a plane carrying food flew into an airport the relief agency concerned had to pay to Osman Ali Atto several thousand dollar for landing rights and security. -- Needs citation. Also, which airport? Bali-Dogle or Mogadishu?
- SSA should link to the disambiguated "Somali Salvation Alliance".

I'd like to see if this article can be cleaned up so it can go for a A-class review. You've put a lot into it so far. Make it shine! --Petercorless 01:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hope it makes it; S710 has done some amazing work on this guy. Whiskey Pete 02:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] War crimes

Thanks a lot for the feed-back. Much appreciated. Maybe we need a new category: people reported (by reliable sources) to have committed war crimes. Now that Atto is reported (by reliable sources) to use child soldiers, there is a broad consensus that this makes him a war criminal. If you would exclusively apply the legalistic view you would have to come to the conclusion that there are no war criminals in Somalia, because none were accused or convicted.S710 14:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, "war criminal" will never pass muster with those concerned more with "crimes agains encyclopicity" than crimes against humanity. That said, certain categories of indictments (Nuremburg, USDOJ, EU, subjects of Universal Jursidiction, etc) are very well defined, and would be more than suitable categories, if they can be referenced. Whiskey Pete 02:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that there could be a category, but consider the issues of legality, libel, and misuse. One person's war hero is another person's war criminal. I'm not disputing nor defending any of the life of Osman Ali Atto. But we need to only use "War criminal" on those formally charged and convicted. I'd suggest "Category:Persons alleged to have committed war crimes" for those who have generally allegations without formal charge or conviction. --Petercorless 08:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"One person's war hero is another person's war criminal? I don't agree that it's a completely subjective matter. There is agreement on what constitutes a war crime under international law. Instead of "alleged to have committed war crimes" I would prefer "(widely) reported to have committed war crimes"S710 12:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not completely subjective. Here was the example I had in mind: Curtis LeMay himself considered that had the U.S. lost, he may have been convicted of war crimes for his role in ordering strategic bombing campaigns against civilian targets. Since the U.S. won the war, he went on to a career that even led him to candidacy for the U.S. Vice Presidency. --Petercorless 15:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Getting back to the category, I added this to the Biography project talk page: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#War_criminals.2C_and_those_not_formally_accused. --Petercorless 15:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It needn't be subjective if we avoid broad designations like "war criminal", an instead restrict ourselves to specific commissions, tribunals, etc which have named certain individuals in certain reports for their participation in certain unspeakable activities. "So-and-so was cited by the Rettig commission for..." is perfectly documentable and libel-proof. Whiskey Pete 19:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drug traficker

this should be cleaned up. the claim that mr Ato he is a drug traficker is false with no evidence to support it. this is a smear spread by people belonging to a rival factions.