Talk:Orpington

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[edit] Romany

A group of anons continuously adds irrelevant info about the Romany. Don't think it rises to the level of semi-protection yet. Just wanted to bring it up for further discussion later. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 16:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Not only irrelevant, but also totally illiterate gibberish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.19.249 (talk) 17:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, the editor concerned was warned for taking material from the BBC Kent website, and asked to put specifically local context material into their own words. I would suggest that the material could be readily condensed to a cited sentence or two on the Romani links to Orpington (apparently it is has traditionally been an area of Romani settlement!). I think s/he has had enough time to knock it into shape. Kbthompson 17:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The artcile seems fine, when you say illigitment rubbish, do you meen the Romany words that you can't understand, Romany is a lanugage spoke world wide. What you saying is offensive to the Romany people, Romany history is of importantance to Orpington due it being the largest settle community in the UK. If you don't live in kent or Orpington or UK then your opinion is of no use.Diamonddannyboy 14:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry when you say illiterate gibberish. Are you referring to the Romany Speach. This offensive to all Romany Gypsies and you can be reported to the police, any more and ill ask for you to be removed from this site, Romanies are an ethic group, and most things past down are with rokker or speach and not in writing.Diamonddannyboy 14:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The language of this version of wikipedia is standard English. Your work does require extensive revision to fit into an encyclopaedic article, not least for uncited content and relevance to the article. I have put into the article all the referenced material I can find on Orpington and the Romani. I would suggest that you discuss any further changes here, as I first prompted you to, when you started posting copyright material here.
As I also suggested on your user page, you should observe before posting in order to find the kind of material that is acceptable. There are also a number of other issues here, first you leap to take offence where none is intended (although the anonymous user could have been more moderate in their language). Secondly, making legal threats within wikipedia is absolutely forbidden.
If you would like to discuss what further additions you would like in the article, please do so here. If as you say, it's part of a purely verbal history, then policy on verification suggests it has no place in wikipedia. Kbthompson 15:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I just the original article that I wrote in my own words, Romany History, must be of some importance to your readers, every thing I wrote can be verified and the artcile has been on wikipedia for over month, what wrong with it you are still not explaining, if such offensive things were written about other ethnic groups it would be against the law. surley to slate the romany lanugage is rasist. The article is about Romany History in Orpington only and can be verified on other sites. so what is wrong with the edit, I dont understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diamonddannyboy (talk • contribs) 16:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Of course romany history is written down, just do a google search on romany,gypsy or traveller, however the romanies dont write there history they tell it. All that I have wrote can be verified by BBC website Romnay routes, so if no one has any objections I would like the article to be put back. Thank youDiamonddannyboy 16:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

  1. Not wikified
  2. Repeats information included elsewhere in article and elsewhere in wiki
  3. Poor phraseology and sentence structure, internally repetitive
  4. Folk memory, unsupported by reliable sources (except messageboards)
  5. Former place names not verifiable - otherwise I would have happily included them in the 'executive summary'
  6. Unencyclopaedic. Long lists of unrelated common names are not particularly useful.
If you send me a link to an on-line presence for the Romani museum, I'll add something on it. I'm not unsympathetic to Romanis and I've bent over backwards to try to encourage you and point you in the right direction. However, you insist on going your own way and that's fine, but in that case, I would predict it won't be here. Kbthompson 16:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Romany Museum details THE SOUTH EAST ROMANY MUSEUM Howland Road, Marden Kent TN12 9DH 01622 831681 aslo I have left a link on your talk page81.152.136.21

Also when ive edited it do I put it on this discussion page for people to look at and approve81.152.136.21 —Preceding comment was added at 19:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I've added the link to the external links. I hope by discussing the changes you want to make, we can put it into a suitable form for an encyclopaedia with suitable references - there's plenty of academic material on the romani life, it's just a question of finding it and ensuring that it has a very direct local relevance. Kbthompson (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This is the article I would like to go on this page van any one help make wikipedia friendly. I need help with walter patemen a book was wrote about this romany solider first world war, only reference is on the bbc website romany routes, aslo is there any ref to gypsy rose lee queen of the gypsies who lived in orpington, gilderoy scamp king of the gypsies born in orpington.Diamonddannyboy (talk)

Romany History Orpington For Romany History the beginnings please see[Romani People][[1]]on wikipedia, this is about the Romany History Orpington, Orpington and surrounding area was a rural area, and had many Farms, and kent had many Hop & fruit Farms so Orpington became along with other area's such as Erith a stopping area or 'Atchin Tan' One of the stopping areas was Corkes meadow 'Corkes pit' and Ruxley Pit [[2]] another, Corkes pit[[3]] is not there any more and has been built on, but it was near to the gas works in Sevenoaks road. The other area was Ruxley pit which would of been located at the top of chalk pit avenue. Many Romany families would have stopped at Corkes pit from all over the uk, not just the kent Travellers, in the 1960s, the hop farms started to use machinery to pick the hops and didn't require the labour from the travellers, also they started to use labour from abroad. It was now coming hard to find stopping places, and the council made it hard for travellers to stop. The council had to provide permanent stopping areas for these travellers. One such area is Star lane site which is one of the largest in the uk and [St Mary cray] as the largest group of Romany travellers, the lucky famlies got plot's on these sites and others took houses kenners with great upset around the corkes pit arealesson Hill others moved from kent, and continued to struggle to get work and find Kushti Atchin tans' After the Farm work tried up and the travellers could not follow the seasons for picking such as Fruit apples or pobble Cherries Gulos and potatoes and hops, and when it became over for the women and men to 'hawk'. The men started to look for local labouring work and many families settled. Many of the young travellers are very far attached from the old nomadic life of the Romany people that left India over 1000 years ago, some are worried that the Romany jib or language will be lost as time goes by, even travellers in there fourties can't speakroker full romany, there is only 1000 people in the uk that can speak Romany compared to Romania 40,000. The travelling life is now really over for the travellers, but they still stay in touch with some of there past, along with fruit picking the women would of made and sold pegs and flowers door to door which is called 'hawking' they would taken things to sell in baskets called 'kels' This way of selling is now illegal, and is sadly lost. The Brazil family in Marden are trying to show young travellers the past, along with others throughout kent, at the [Romany museum][[4]] Some of the families from kent and who would of stopped at corkes pit are, Rutherford,Buckley,Saunders,Scamp,Lee, Love, Jackson,Chapman, Arnold, French, Ripley,Stanley, Crittenden,Price, Webb, Marny, Smith, Roberts, Jones, philips, Renolds, Waller, Smith,Brazil, Ball, Elliot, Taylor, Driscol, Mead,Pateman,Beany,Ward,Verrall, Dighton,James, Walker,Green, Ray and many more, most of the families still live in Orpington, and others live in kent or London. Famous Romanys from Orpington

[Gypsy Rose lee]][[5]] [Gilderoy Scamp][6]][,Mark Ripley Mark was not beaten by Bartley Gorman and was mentioned in his book., Jonny Love, Private Walter Pateman[[7]] Henry Jackson[8]] A book as been writen about Private Walter patemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diamonddannyboy (talk • contribs) 09:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Checking 'Romany History'

Hi, there are still many of the same problems with your text, and you are now acquiring new problems in that while your references may mention the name of the person, they do not in fact establish either their notability, or their connection with Orpington - for instance:- Gilderoy Scamp just leads to a photograph of the man, no further details apart from stating he was a resident of Folkestone. Similarly, with Gypsy Rose Lee, this was not the notable American of the same sobriquet, but a Gypsy queen living in Farnborough.

I'm likely to include the place names in the area's history text, as you have found some documentation for them. In an encyclopaedia it is not sufficient to throw a collection of unrelated 'facts' against the wall to see how many stick. They have to have some general notability and to be of wider interest. I hope that helps. Kbthompson (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Gypsy Rose lee, im talking about the queen of gypsies, who lived in orpington, not the singer who has no conection to orpington, the article is about romany history of orpington and romanies from orpington, Gilderoy Scamp was 'king of the Gypsies' and was born in Orpington. Apart from those two what else is wrong, I have shown that Gypsy Rose lee , was queen of gypsies and died in Farborough Orpington and linked web page to reference this. Ill add more on Gilderoy Scamp, he is even mention in wikipedia else where.

All the other like corkes pit, show pictures of it and web links the same with Ruxley pit, and the same with Private walter Pateman, the same with the Barzil family, and the same with Rutherford family. Every thing you write does not need a reference.Diamonddannyboy (talk)

Hi, that's not what those references said. If material already exists in wikipedia, there is no need to repeat it here (and yes, you added it!) - that's the reason for the links. What my aim here is to put as much of the information you have in a form that is acceptable to wikipedia. If we don't do that, someone else will just delete it. By editing in wikipedia you agree that that you neither own what you say, and don't mind if someone edits it - even to the point of complete excision. We'll see what we can do, information needs to be independently verifiable by others - this prevents the many hoaxes that people attempt on wiki. Kbthompson (talk) 10:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Each reference is backed up by web content, also other stuff on romanies on wikipedia, what else needs been done.86.152.120.134 (talk)

There is a hierarchy of quality of references. Some like wikipedia are edited by individuals, and so are not reliable enough to meet the criteria of verifiability. Kbthompson (talk) 12:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

With romany life in kent, there is not much writen on wikipedia, I find hard to believe that due to it not being on wikipedia but else where, that it is not verifiable, perhaps other Romany/travellers like myself who tried to write about our life and culture on wikipedia have found the same problems as me. I have verified the more important thing and I cant add a web link or wiki reference to every word and sentence. I have added a web link to the romany society for Gilderoy Scamp, they are an authority on romany life. do you want me to add links to every name mentioned. I dont understand81.159.182.27 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I have checked the rest of the Orpington page and most of is content is linked to web pages not wikipedia, just take a look at the sport and leisure section as an example81.159.182.27 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excuse me for the rather obscure meme but...

This user believes that this bus goes to Orpington.

DOES THIS BUS GO TO ORPINGTON?! --MrMetalFLower (talk) 11:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

No. The last Routemasters stopped at Catford. Patrick Neylan (talk) 01:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)