Talk:Origins of hip hop

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Actually, there is quite a good book on the history of rap from an ethnomusicological perspective. It is called Rap and the Academy. It's been a while since I read it, but I seem to remember rap being traced back to African American preaching styles in the early twentieth century. As such, it is related to the public speaking styles of Martin Luther King Jr. and Jesse Jackson, among many others. Danny

I haven't read it but I don't doubt black oration is a source too. Aretha Franklin's father, the Bishop C.L. Franklin, released some collossal sermon recordings (on Chess records).

What I've been trying to get at with this article is that nothing comes from nowhere, everything has a past. I'll see if I can add something on black preaching. Lots of jazz and blues styles, even big band, are based on the idea of the preacher singing out and the congregation singing back, the "call and response". Ortolan88

There no mention of George Clinton/Funkadelic/Parliment. Why is that? -- Anon

Because nobody has got around to it yet. We are still very much under construction. Please do add to this article. Welcome to wikiland. --mav

I think the title of this article is rather badly chosen - most of it is about what came before rap, not about the first rap record at all (and if it were, it should have gone under the record's title or artist's name anyway). I think something like "Origins of rap music" would be a better title Andre Engels

I agree (and I started it). Ortolan88 16:06 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)
Has been moved. Ortolan88
There is a similar article called First rock and roll record. If we move this one, let's move that one, too. Rmhermen 16:11 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)
I started that one too, but I don't agree that its title should be changed. While there is some stuff about the roots of rock and roll in there that might be its own article some day, there is also a straightforward discussion of which record or records should be credited as the marking the watershed between all of music from the beginning of time and the beginning of rock and roll. Ortolan88 16:48 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)
Leaving it alone. Ortolan88

I don't quite follow this, which was added by Tokerboy:

block parties in New York City, which were similar to Jamaican sound systems.

How is a "block party" like a "sound system"? Something is missing. Maybe if those articles were filled in, I would understand, but does sound system mean "a gathering with a sound system", rather than the system itself? Ortolan88

Is it clearer now? Basically, a gathering around a sound system was also called a sound system, which is confusing, but that's the way it works. Tokerboy

That's what I thought. Much clearer now. It must have been exciting for the people who participated in beginnings in the Bronx and Jamaica. Ortolan88

read the articles on Reggae and ska. Sound system is almost like a genre unto itself, turned into dub.

Might we want to move this to roots of hip hop? Though the focus seems to be on the actual rapping, the roots of DJing are also mentioned. Tuf-Kat

Contents

[edit] ¿Missing translation?

My last reversion was from a Spanish translation of this article that may have strayed in from some other Wikipedia. Ortolan88

PS -- Alarmo falso: Upon further examination, it appears that someone simply ran the article through a translator and dropped it in here unmunged. Ortolan88 17:40, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hip Hop/Rap

Shouldn't this be moved to Roots of rap music? Teklund 28 June 2005 16:04 (UTC)

No. --FuriousFreddy 23:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pink Floyd

What's with the thing about Pink Floyd at the bottom? It's whack. Somebody fix this. Smokeandflames 04:29, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] problem with disco section

Just because some of the pioneers perceive hip-hop as a backlash against disco doesn't mean you can write an unsourced section claiming that this is true based on those quotes. They are quotes, and are not enough to say that the whole culture was behind them. Also, as you can see from the Kurtis Blow quote, many hip-hoppers were into disco. I think the history has been falsely presented here. Disco only became synthetic and white-washed in its final years. Lastly, I'd like you to consider that Snoop Dogg recently did an excellent song produced by, and featuring the Bee Gees. Be objective, and source your stuff. Keep it in the proper scope. I'll be watching this article.--Urthogie 17:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] how to get the citations and sources for the section i marked as needing them

The way to get the citations and sources for the sections that talks about early influences and whatnot(the one with "Citation Needed" next to every fact) is to look at the sources for the history section(s) of the rapping article. Someone please do that. Thanks, guys! Peace, --Urthogie 23:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Urthogie: what gives? you don't think i did my research?

what are you talking about? of COURSE i did my research, and i'm putting my stuff back in. maybe YOU should research and verify and CORRECT my innacuracies.. and not just delete ALL of my stuff. just because what i say might SEEM innacurate to you doesn't MEAN it actually IS innacurate. i did a lot of research, do your own before just deleting.

"Just because some of the pioneers perceive hip-hop as a backlash against disco doesn't mean you can write an unsourced section claiming that this is true based on those quotes."

first of all: what do you mean "unsourced"? have you ever tried google? have you ever tried googling those quotes and see if they appear anywhere? i have those quotes on good faith. i took them out of a book by david toop. do you know who david toop is? is he "unsourced" too?

"They are quotes, and are not enough to say that the whole culture was behind them."

i never said that the "whole culture" was behind those quotes. but i keep finding a lot of them. and i'm gonna put more in there as i keep finding them.

"Also, as you can see from the Kurtis Blow quote, many hip-hoppers were into disco."

that's right, because its complex, and that's the way i wanna present it. i could've edited that out, but i kept it in because NEWSFLASH!! people can form their own opinions. this article is about YES!! the roots of hip hop music. it is not about whether disco sucks or not. it is not about whether i like it or you hate it. it is NOT about whether you can RHYME over it or not. this article is not about the origins of MC's rapping over disco. it is about the origins of hip-hop MUSIC. the emergence of hip-hop as its own genre. and if you have to say some ugly thruths about disco in order to do that, then you have to.

"Disco only became synthetic and white-washed in its final years."

that lazy statement is purely a matter of opinion, and not of fact. do your homework. disco was from the start produced for mass consumption. check your facts.

"Lastly, I'd like you to consider that Snoop Dogg recently did an excellent song produced by, and featuring the Bee Gees."

snoop dogg sucks and so do the bee gees. and you know it. neither represent true hiphop. like eminem, snoop is dr dre's bitch (excuse the pun). it's the same way with u2 and brian eno. read about it.

"Be objective, and source your stuff. Keep it in the proper scope."

eat your own doggfood.

"I'll be watching this article."

and i'll be watching YOU

"how to get the citations and sources for the section i marked as needing them. The way to get the citations and sources for the sections that talks about early influences and whatnot(the one with "Citation Needed" next to every fact) is to look at the sources for the history section(s) of the rapping article. Someone please do that. Thanks, guys! Peace"

all by themselves, good citations do not a good/interesting article make. i do not have a track record of making stuff up. and i do not have a conflict of interest. i DO hold a neutral point of view. you may not like the facts i'm exposing you to, but that doesn't mean that my point of view ain't neutral. and i DON'T want to footnote everything and keep a reference thing on the bottom because i don't have time for that. Urthogie, if you're so good at digging up sources, then why don't you go ahead and dig them up for me? i won't mind. --Verbose

[edit] MADNESS!!

dude.. you put f*cking "citation needed" EVERYWHERE!!! "The witty, rhyme-filled boasts of boxing champion Muhammad Ali.[Citation needed]" heh heh heh what gives? --Verbose

[edit] response to verbose

I liked your edits very much, but they were too POV'd to be included. First off, the section title should be "Disco." I read in the vibe history of hip-hop that it took people a while to see hip-hop as something seperate from disco. Call it disco, because disco helped it be created as much as it split off. The section itself set a POV from the getgo and maintained it. I'll begin recreating the section.

Also, citation is needed because IT IS TRUE that he is one of the roots, his rhymes. However, you need a source to prove that a hip-hopper or professor of hip-hop acknowledges this. I know its obvious to you, but this is an encyclopedia, not a hip-hop website.

Peace.

--Urthogie 21:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] we sorted it out

As the good wikipedians that we are, we decided to talk on AIM, and have begun a recreation of the section that will establish a neutral POV. excellent! thanks for cooperation, verbose, things like this really show wikipedia at its best.--Urthogie 23:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Good information, but the article is a slight bit gushy. Example:

Librarians of lunacy and analog alchemy, Ghetto DJs found solace in experimentation. A generation that refused to be silenced by urban poverty, teenagers with little cash but plenty of imagination began to forge new styles from spare parts.

Also, the hiearchy for headers begins at level 2, not level 1, for articles (use "==", not "="). --FuriousFreddy 18:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] on my to do list

Once im done with some other tasks, this article is on my to do list as it needs a lot of work, especially the gushy prose that has been pointed out here is definitely biased towards David toop's point of view.--Urthogie 19:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that almost all of the section that you removed deserved to go (Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band?), but somewhere you need to re-add a reference to Gil Scott-Heron's 1970 "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". BlankVerse 12:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
He's already mentiones Roots_of_hip_hop#Earlier_styles_that_contributed_to_hip-hop_music.--Urthogie 12:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)