Talk:Operation Mars

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Why is this article not at Operation Mars? Quick google test shows that that's a much more common name for this. Oberiko 02:34, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think you have a point as Operation Uranus is under the heading Operation Uranus. I vote to change it around so Second Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive redirects to operation Mars, best wait for some more comments though --Pluke 02:58, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, user:Gdr did the opposite move quite recently: 15:28, 22 Mar 2005 without talking much. Mikkalai 04:50, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, you additionaly have my vote to move it back. Oberiko 11:52, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is an example of an article where two Wikipedia principles are in opposition. The principle of placing the article under the most common name would indeed put it at Operation Mars. But the principle of neutrality says that, where possible, we should choose names that reflect the experience of both sides in a conflict. An operation name for a battle gives primacy to one side's planning; a geographical name is more neutral. Also, the geographical name gives the reader a clue to where the battle took place, whereas the codename merely obfuscates (as it was, of course, designed to do).

Personally I would prefer to move Operation Uranus to a geographic name. Gdr 19:14, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

I have to agree with gdr.One thing is an overwhelmingly and widely known name, such as "Operation Barbarossa". Other thing is an operation known to relatively few specialists, and relatively recently, too. With rare exceptions local battles are named by geographical locations; just look into any battle/war subcategory. Codenames are used mostly for major far-reaching plans. Mikkalai 19:24, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi Gdr, I see your point and there doesn't seem to be a universally adopted system with code names used for Operation Barbarossa and Operation Torch, while geographic names used for such events as Battle of Normandy aka operation overlord. An argument for calling it Operation Mars is that such an event as 'Operation Overlord' is often interchanged in literature with the 'Battle of Normandy', whilst something like Operation Mars, though rarely mentioned in literature, to the best of my knowledge is rarely interchanged with its geographical name. Whatever we decide we need to settle a naming regeime for Operation Uranus, Operation Mars and Operation_Saturn. Which at the moment is two to one for naming it after the operations. Can we wait a while so everyone can get their opinions down then take a vote in a few days time. I recommend placing notices on the other pages as well about this vote. --Pluke 19:35, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This page seems to be the best guidance Wikipedia:WikiProject_Battles and following these guidelines would suggest calling it The Second Battle of Rzhev-Sychevka or something along those lines, what does everyone think?--Pluke 20:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was actually Gdr who stated that we shouldn't use Operation names on the battle page. Kind of circular logic. Oberiko 01:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

see what you mean :), anyways i'm now with the consensus of keeping the current name and adjusting Operation Uranus and Operation_Saturn accordingly. --Pluke 02:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Battle of Velikiye Luki 2 smaller sections 3 copyvio? 4 Soviet Losses

[edit] Battle of Velikiye Luki

Do you guys consider the Velikiye Luki encirclement and siege to be part of this offensive? It was undertaken by the northern wing of the Kalinin Front, but it seems to have been an attack in a tangential direction. &mdas; B.Bryant 02:35, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] smaller sections

Could you make some smaller sections with titles? Wandalstouring 22:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] copyvio?

[edit] Soviet Losses

While, as a rule, I find that in articles concerned with battles of the Nazi-Soviet theatre of WW2, Soviet losses are exaggerated, here the opposite is true. Glantz puts Soviet losses at 100,000 dead and 300,000 wounded. Why this deflation to a mere 70,000 and on what basis?. There is a reason that he calles this battle "the red army's epic disaster".

The reason for it is marketing. A book with such a title would sell better... The 70 thousand number is from Krivosheev, who is quite a reliable source. However, 70 373 are KIA/MIA while 145 301 are wounded/sick, which gives us a total of approx. 215 thousand casualties... With respect, Ko Soi IX 04:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)