Talk:Omnivore

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Animals
 Omnivore is within the scope of WikiProject Animals, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to animals and zoology. For more information, visit the project page.
Animals Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject Animals To-do:

Contents

[edit] Old discussion

here's a question: omnivores eat plants and animals, correct? however, i, like many human beings, eat mushrooms, which are neither plant nor animal. what does that make me? -Zodiac Digital

Omnivore is a species concept, so it doesn't say anything about an individual. However, you might want to look at -vore for fun. Carnivore/Herbivore is not particularly accurate, and really is only useful for large animals -- and with the older three kingdom classification (and, even then, ignoring Prokaryotes). In the old taxonomy, fungus is a plant. Ted Talk 20:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I edited this piece previously in order to add an opposing scientific view from a Harvard professor to avoid the assumption that meat consumption was solely responsible for the evolutionary increase in human brain size. Why brain size is even discussed here is a mystery to me.

Also, I amended: "Primates (including human beings)" to "Many Primates (including human beings)" due to the fact that some primates are strictly carnivores, for example Horsfield's Tarsier, while others are herbivore (i.e. Orangutan).

I recommend it be switched back or edited again to reflect these ideas.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.13.246 (talk • contribs)

It's a mystery for me what the term "omnivore" is actually meant to mean. If it means animals who, as a matter of fact, eat both plants and meat, then it makes no sense to speak of "true" omnivores (as in the header of the list of "Animals that are true omnivores"). An animal is or isn't an omnivore. Cows are omnivores (since they are often fed slaughterhouse residues). Cats are omnivores (almost all cat food has a large percentage of vegetables).
Actually, from the way the term is used, it gives the impression that an omnivore is an animal who is "meant" to eat both plants and meat. Meant by whom? Implicitly, it seems what people have in mind is "meant by nature". As if there was some such thing as "nature" that "means" for us to do this or that. Of course, Creationists can believe that. Darwinists should not.
It's also unclear whether the term is supposed to apply to a species or to individuals.
David Olivier 22:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humans and domestic animals

Sorry, but humans are omnivores. Look at the reference given in the article (reproduced here). It is from a vegetarian website. The point the author makes is: "All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is omnivorous and would include meat. We are not, however, required to consume animal protein. We have a choice." [1]. Further, he states, "Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns."

Domestic animals are normally not classified. They will eat whatever we might feed them. Sometimes, people will classifiy them based on their natural ancestors, if they are known. By this, cattle are herbivores. Their anatomy is designed for it and their nondomestic relatives are, regardless of any animal protein humans may feed them in a feedlot. It is more problematic with dogs, since we are still trying to work out the natural ancestors. Ted 18:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed banner

There is just too much POV and inaccurate stuff on this page. It seems like a propaganda page for jutifying meat eating.

The definition that is given is disputable. It was changed (June 3) for the specific purpose of including humans among the omnivores. It is generally quite unclear whether the concept of an omnivore means:

- an individual animal who eats both plants and animals;

- a species (or other group of animals) all members of which eat both plants and animals;

- a kind of animal who was "meant" (by "nature", God or some other willful entity) to eat both plants and animals.

All these meanings are regularly conflated, making the very notion of an omnivore moot.

Currently, the article says:

Omnivore refers to the species. Popular use sometimes refers to individuals (particularly humans). This article uses the species designation.

However, it is certainly untrue that all humans, in particular, eat both animal flesh and plants. So in what sense are humans supposed to be omnivores?

Referring to the purported definition is of no help: generalized feeders, with neither carnivore nor herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food. If it refers to the actual practice, then cows are omnivores, since they are perfectly able to digest animal food (they are regularly fed recycled slaughterhouse guck). If it doesn't refer to the actual practice, what does it refer to? What "mother nature" intended? The whole issue is full of an implicit appeal to the purported intentions of some kind of mother nature.David Olivier 16:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It refers to their biological makeup. Basically, feeding specialization can be looked at in three ways:
  1. Obtaining the food. Carnivore specializations include talons, claws, jaw structure (think T. Rex), stealthy behavior, etc. Not only hunting, but also scavenging. Herbivore specializations include tongue modifications, lip modification, grazing behavior, etc.
  2. Eating the food. Carnivore specializations include dentition (tearing teeth), claws, etc. Herbivore specializations include dentition (crushing teeth), jaws designed for chewing plants (mortar & pestle), etc.
  3. Digesting the food. Carnivore specializations include stomach enzymes for breaking down meat, short intestines, etc. Herbivore specializations include multiple stomachs, stomach enzymes for breaking down vegetation, long intestines (takes longer to digest), etc.
Omnivores have a little of everything. Bovine (cattle) have the specializations for herbivore, but none of the specializations for carnivore, despite what we might feed them in a feedlot. Gray wolves lack the herbivore specializations, and simply don't get much nutrition out of grass. It is a matter of looking at biological adaptation. Would you rather use that language? That humans are biologically adapted to eat both meat and plants? I can write it that way if you want. Ted 01:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And then what on earth justifies a blanket assertion such as: Omnivores lack the specialist behaviour of carnivores and herbivores, searching widely for food sources, and therefore may be better able to withstand changes within their ecological niche.??? How do you measure how specialized an animal is? Is an herbivore who can eat all sorts of plants more "specialized" than an "omnivore" who can eat only voles and peanuts? That is a perfectly vacuous sentence, the only purpuse of which is to say how nice it is to be an omnivore.

In the end, over half the article should just be trashed. I'm not sure there is any use for the notion of an omnivore at all. It is a 19th century notion, that has about zero scientific utility.

David Olivier 16:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Some comments. "It was changed (June 3) for the specific purpose of including humans among the omnivores." Actually, the definition has always included humans. I am the one who added the quote in the leader paragraph. I didn't do that to "change the definition", but to reference a vegetarian source. The definition of omnivore has always included humans. It does not mean that humans can't be vegetarians. In the same way, humans are classified as bipedal, land-dwelling animals. That doesn't mean we can't swim or walk on all four. Many of these definitions are somewhat fuzzy. While the scientific utility of such classifications may have been reduced in recent years, it is not true they have zero utility. In any case, it is a species concept (although biologists sometimes will use it to describe populations that are unusual -- such as species that are normally frugivores, but a certain population is omnivorous). I'll see if I can come up with a more understandable definition.
I agree with your take on the pseudo-evolution comments. They should go. Ted 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
David, your argument that we could call cows omnivores because they are fed meat is a strawman argument. Cows do not naturally eat meat. Humans, on the other hand, have been shown to eat meat as far back as we are able to record, and the fact that both humans (early and modern) and our closest primate relatives eat meat make it likely that our nearest common ancestors also ate meat. I know people hate to make assertion about what humans "naturally" do, but I can't see how people can argue about whether or not early humans were "naturally" eating meat: it certainly wasn't fed to them by anyone. Likewise, humans "naturally" walk on two legs. Nothing in this article or in what I just said appeals to "Mother Nature" or her "intentions," and certainly no one is discussing what humans are "meant" to do. 199 16:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistent with the Herbivore definition

Although the Omnivore definition appears to be fairly complete, and I think appropriately lists Humans as omnivores, it is inconsistent with the herbivore definition, which lists humans as herbivores. Although there is an attempt to distinguish by stating that humans are traditionally herbivores, I think the evidence does not support this assumption, and that the herbivore definition needs to be expanded and corrected. The omnivore definition is mostly acceptable.

Indeed. I've noticed a number of people inserting, for lack of a better term, 'vegan propaganda', into a number of articles. 24.252.195.3 (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Edits

I am over the next few weeks going to take on the task of editing this to be able to remove the stub. I look forward to comments but please allow me to finish working things through before reverting, editing or throwing any bouquets or brickbats in the discussion. Thank you very much for your understanding in this matter. AlanD 23:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Intent I am an environmental biologist with a specific interest in evolutionary biology. My intention is to produce a NPOV article outlining the term Omnivore. Omnivores are not "supposed" to be that way nor is it to do with what they "do" eat. Omnivores are physiologically adapted to digest plant and animal matter. There is a need for this category and it is not outdated. Omnivores are as different from Herbivores and Carnivores as they are from each other. The dentition and digestive system of omnivores are very specifically adapted to eating plant and animal matter. Yes carnivores do occasionally eat plant matter. Yes we do feed animal matter to herbivores. These things may be mentioned in an aside but they are not the same thing at all.

AlanD 23:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been meaning to update this article too and started the other day, though haven't edited the article. I'll be happy to back you up if there's something you need, just leave me a message. Firelement85 06:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Brilliant, thanks. I'm thinking we'll need a list of omnivorous (spp. d'oh, I'll use a spell checker on the article I think, lol) species but may be best to focus primarily on mammalian ominivores (others can add anything about other families later). Dentition, digestive system, behaviour and so on.

I very much want to avoid any imprecise language. Natural Selection is a powerful enough tool to explain how animals are adapted to their nieches without talking about them being "meant to" or being "designed for" certain things.

I think when it come to the list of species that we need to split up the Primates... a bit of a large and diverse group. Even the Apes show great diversity. I do want to avoid a human-centric view on the world and evolution but this is being written by humans for humans so those species closest to us from an evolutionary POV (Bonobos, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Oragutangs (spp.)) could do with individual mentions.

Oops I've gone off on one. How does that sound anyway?

Images are an issue for me. I'm never 100% on the criterion etc. What I really could do with is comparitive diagrams of the digestive system (and dentition) of Omnivores with Herbivores and Carnivore. Some pictures of a few other omnivore species would be good too (including a human, lol).

Anyway, I've been up half the night with the baby so I'll be saying toddle-loo for now. Thanks for the offer and I hope that sounds alright.AlanD 11:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

  • The best way to deal with humans I think, is to have a section just related to humans, I've recently been edit warring with someone who is a vegetarian about whether humans are omnivores and I think that this is really the area that needs the most detail as normal people, those without scientific background are easily confused and can be overwhelmed by the language used so remember to keep it simple but also don't go too soft, it's a fine line I suppose, a lot of people don't understand Natural Selection.

I'll have a look for images that are already uploaded that may be approprite (Image law on Wikipedia drives me nuts) but I'll see about creating some if they are needed. Firelement85 12:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Cheers!AlanD 18:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll be tackling this next week as it'll be half term and I'll have the time then.AlanD 22:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Heck I don't own the page but I do feel I need to apologise for promising and not producing. VERY busy week. I will be updating this ASAP. Please though feel free to comment on my proposal below.AlanD 08:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Idea for discussion

I've an idea... Howsabout we roll herbivore, ominvore, carnivore and insectivore into one article with redirects from those terms? One article, animal feeding. Might be better than trying to pad out these terms seperately. If the sections fill out properly then they can be split off at a later date. This will also allow comparisons to be drawn between different feeding groups.AlanD 11:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Discuss:

[edit] Inuit Diet and health

Im not sure how objective the author is being with this one the way they talk about the Inuits. While they certainly get along fine with an almost all meat diet I am told they have one of the shortest life expectancies of any ethnic group - perhaps it should be toned down a little as right now it does read a bit like an add for the new "Inuit wonder diet". NZNicholas 23:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bats

I don't think that bats belong in the list of omnivore species. Individual bat species are either carnivorous or herbivorous, not both. -- Dougie WII (talk) 21:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humans omnivores vs. herbivores

Humans as omnivores is not a universally accepted scientific fact. Certainly the diets of most humans is omnivorous, but there is substantial debate over whether the human body is more suited to an omnivorous diet or a herbivorous diet. The article only mentioned one side, so I moved refs and info (with different wording) from the vegetarianism article to cover both sides of the argument. Okiefromokla's sockpuppet/talk 20:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The recent reversion was because (including my point in the edit sumary) that the information was included already in the previous paragraph that humans have the capability to consume meat. We don't need to point out specifically the teeth, because, in realtiy, this is one of the arguments used against omnivorism, as human teeth (blunt canines/cuspids included) are in no way capable of biting into a live animal, (except for maybe a mouse), but certainly not large animals. Cuspids are small and blunt, and do not stand above the other teeth, which makes it impossible to use them in eating meat (meat is consumed when prepared, but in no way do cuspids aid in eating prepared meat, nor are they necessary to do so), and they would be useless in eating a live animal. So it is silly to say that in the article. Again, it's redundant of previous statements that humans can digest both plant and animal food. Okiefromokla's sockpuppet/talk 03:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Before even engaging this debate the following should be answered: why is the advocacy in favour of vegeterianism even necessary on this page? Both of the paragraphs on humans could be cut to one sentence, in my opinion. Marskell (talk) 13:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree, some of the recent comments here seem to amount to a WP:SOAP violation. There are very few scientists probably all of which have a political agenda that support the humans-as-herbivores idea. Can't this conversation be moved to its own page or to a page on vegetarianism or something? I really don't believe this belongs in this general scientific article that is meant to address a broad range of animals. -- Dougie WII (talk) 15:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Marskell and Dougie's arguments make a lot of sense to me. Any "debate" would be if humans are more suited to herbivorism (vegetarianism), not to question if humans can process animal products (which makes us omnivore by definition)... so it really doesn't belong here. I have just removed the discussion of humans all together and inserted "human" to the list of animals considered omnivorous. That makes a lot of sense to me, as the article is about omnivorism in general, not human diet. Sorry for bringing this up, everyone! Okiefromokla's sockpuppet/talk 17:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


Thanks SockPuppet, I agree with you in this respect. This article really has nothing to do with Human diet specifically, although I appreciate the fact that you have added Humans to the list. I feel very strongly about what Wikipedia should be, and as such, I don't think Wikipedia is a place that should be used for opinions or ethical subjectivism. Some human cultures are canibalistic, in which case they eat other humans (needless to say, that's gross). That is still considered carnivorism. Eating a mouse, by your example, would still be considered carnivorism. There is no defined point of time in human advancement at which point we would be considered a carnovoire or not. Fact is, humans in general eat meat, whether they ate meat as cave men 10,000 B.C., or in a sushi restaurant in the year 2040, is besides the point.[User:Todd82TA]