Talk:Old Master

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I nominate this entry to be trimmed substantially, the list should be shorn. There is perhaps a sense that post-Napoleonic sensibilities were different, and that grand manner is a style of painting whose substance declined in Italy when old regimes were toppled or transiently shelved by around the end of the 19th century: for example, republican Venice, Medici Florence, and transiently papal Rome. However academicism continued (continues) to live on. Christie's and Sotheby's categories have the academic substance of Sunday newspaper coupon books.CARAVAGGISTI 12:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

In English please. I have no idea what was transiently toppled by around the end of the 19th century. As the article says (my para I think) the term has been abandoned by academic art historians (and, as it does not say, very largely by journalists), and the auction houses usefully define how the art trade now uses it. I see no harm in a greatest hits list, although it predates my contribution. Otherwise the article will be a very short stub leading people nowhere much. The list needs watching - I have just snipped Caracciolo or however he is spelt - who else would you nominate? Johnbod 02:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I have now added to it somewhat - I hope this makes it clearer that if anything the end-date should be pushed back not forwards. I see on reflection you (presumably) meant "by the end of the 18th century" above. I don't think the term relates to the "grand manner" or academic painting; it appears to have come into common use to describe Dutch Golden Age painting, especially genre scenes. Johnbod 13:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The pope was kept in France during the Napoleonic takeover of Italy, hence his "political reign" was transiently toppled. I didn't keep track of what happened to all the small fiefdoms in Northern Italy, but I sense many of them were overthrown, but then restored in 1814. The Napoleonic wars changed the artistic sensibility and much of the patronage of Italy, such that one could say that panegyric paintings like Tiepolo, or paintings linking a family to glorious ancestors were less commonly apt or commissioned, hence the grand manner was ebbing.

You can leave the text of the article, and lose the list. Todays top fifty will not be all there tomorrow. CARAVAGGISTI 14:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but since the 20 artists in the list would have probably been included in any list compiled since about 1850, I don't share your pessimism in this respect. Johnbod 14:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm late to this party, but it's hard to find fault with the list. If I can provide some references, I will. JNW 04:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)