Talk:Oiran
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[edit] Tayu vs. oiran
The Japanese article for oiran states 「吉原の太夫を指している語であったが、太夫を含む高位の遊女を花魁と称するようになっていった。」, ie. that "tayu" (which means about a million different things) were originally restricted to Yoshiwara but the name was adopted to refer to the highest rank of oiran anywhere. Oiran's more generic and has been around longer, so it's the better name for this article. Jpatokal 10:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
According to what I've been reading, Tayu were registered in all three main pleasure districts, not just Yoshiwara (I'm doing further research to verify this). However, I will agree that Oiran is a better title for the article because it is a more generic term, whereas Tayu was a very specific rank. It is frustrating, however, that 'yujo' does not have its own article since the term encompasses all ranks of courtesans/prostitutes.
69.108.139.170 17:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] High importance?
This article was moved up to High Importance, but I don't think it is really justified. The Oiran is a somewhat obscure figure, and certainly not of world-wide notability the way High Importance articles are considered.
Any justification for High Importance? Otherwise I will lower it.
MightyAtom 03:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, personally I think it's pretty important, but then this subject fascinates me. Oiran, tayu, geisha and the artistic outpouring from the pleasure districts of Japan really did more to shape Japan than many people want to recognize because of the political incorrectness of it all. It's also very difficult, in my opinion, to have a true understanding of Geisha without having a grasp on the courtesans.
I really think this article needs some work. Tayu and Oiran are used interchangably here, and technically they are not the same thing. Oiran as a specific class of courtesan didn't even exist until -after- the last Tayu retired in 1761. Oiran and Tayu were both the highest class of courtesan but from different periods of time. There are enough differences between the two that if one wanted to be nitpicky, it could be argued that each deserves its own article.
Kookykrisp 05:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- I hope that you can improve the article! It definitely needs work, but I don't know enough about it to do the job it deserves. Still, to the world at large the Oiran is not on the same level of importance/familiarity as the Geisha. I am going to drop this to a lower-level of importance. MightyAtom 03:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ukiyo-e print a male kabuki actor?
The ukiyo-e print illustrating this article certainly looks like a depiction of a male to me. Is it not rather a picture of an actor playing an oiran on stage rather than an actual oiran? If so, perhaps the caption should be altered.Writtenright 02:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)Writtenright
- You are probably right. It was difficult to find a non-copywrited image for this article, so this is what was used. Feel free to alter the caption. MightyAtom 03:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Firefly-verse Companions
I edited the note about the Firefly-verse Companion caste, because the original wording stated it was "based on" this, this and that of the oiran. This very strongly implies - in fact all but states - that the Companion caste is only based on that of the oiran. In reality, looking at the Companion class in the series and realizing that it's supposed to exist in a culturally melded future, you can see that while it bears an extremely strong resemblance to the oiran class (they even have tea ceremonies), it's not identical, and from a writing standpoint, it's probably an amalgamation of oiran/geisha (in fact, I'd argue the writers were more likely thinking "geisha", because they were all westerners and the oiran is practically unknown in the west compared to the geisha, and is just close enough in concept that many westerners might confuse the two) and various other historical classes of courtesans, entertainers and prostitutes, including several much more ancient priestess-prostitute classes - one ancient group of which whose name even translates to "companion". Unless Joss Whedon has stated explicitly that the Companion class is "based on" oiran explicitly, we cannot state categorically that is "based on" the oiran. I did, however, not remove the reference as I think it's notable and relatively accurate given the description of oiran in the article. Instead I just tweaked it to reflect that there was "strong resemblance" instead of it being the (implicitly sole) inspiration for it. Runa27 23:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Great thanks! That works a lot better! MightyAtom 06:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
