Talk:Oedipus complex
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 Portal |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, which collaborates on Psychology and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details on the project.
|
||||||||
[edit] Id is present from birth
An earlier version of this article claimed that the Oedipus complex was used by Freud to explain the origins of the id, the ego and the superego. I have corrected this, to emphasise that Freud only used the Oedipal theory to explain the development of the superego. It would have been very strange if Freud had used Oedipal theory to explain the origin of the id, as he believed the id was present from birth, but claimed that the Oedipus complex did not occur until the age of five. A. Carl 20:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Did Freud ever refer to the Hamlet complex? My H.S. English teachers were obsessed with Freud and insisted on interpreting all of Western literature in this light, and one of them claimed that Freud was considering the Hamlet monicker for his theory but for whatever reason settled on Oedipus. Ellsworth 23:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Are Oedipal wishes always towards the opposite sex?
This article says that Oedipal wishes are towards the opposite sex, but in his essay "On Female Sexuality", Freud argued that girls, initially, have incestuous homosexual desires for their mothers. This meant, in Freud's view, that Oedipal conflicts are more complicated in female than male development, and for this reason, Freud hotly objected to the Jungian practice of using the term "Electra Complex" for the process in females. Also, in 1897, Freud was merely using the term "Oedipus". It was not until 1910 that he began to use the term "Oedipus complex", possibly showing the influence of Jung.A. Carl 21:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Freud's first mention of the Oedipus complex with in the Interpretation of dreams and it's pretty slight. Female sexuality and development was pretty much ignored by his work for a substantial period of time, and it was unclear whether boys were supposed to fixate on their mothers and girls with their fathers due to some innate biological impulses or whether sexuality in the sense of hetero/homosexuality or being attracted to someone of the opposite sex was something more messy and psychological that happened later in development. As his theory evolved, he eventually starts exploring this issue, coming to the opinion that both boys and girls start with either an atraction or a bond or are not-individuated from their mothers, until the father appears and interrupts this state of affairs, at which point it is the anatomical difference (either literal or figurative in some later psychoanalysts) that makes the the boy and girl take different paths through basically the same Oedipus complex. The boy notices the girl's lack or his own inadequacy and starts thinking of himself as capable of losing his penis (Castration anxiety). The girl notices her own lack of a penis and from then on wishes to find ways to compensate or replace it. The boy's path moves him towards identification with the father, and the girl's towards the desire to own the father, the father's penis or to replace the penis symbolically with a child. It's Carl Jung who later renames the Oedipus complex in girls as the Electra complex. Tom Coates 16:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] An inadequate treatment of the Oedipus Complex
The early Freud only briefly referred to the Oedipus complex in the Interpretation of Dreams, where it was - for a long time - considered to be something only boys experienced. The theory developed considerably over the years of Freud's work, and his later understanding of it articulated how both boys and girls were affected by it - with different outcomes - connecting the concept to ideas like penis envy and individuation. At the moment, this article presents a very cliched view of the complex, unsupported by Freud's writing on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.157.115 (talk • contribs)
[edit] Castration anxiety
I think the Little Hans material in the CA article would go much better here. I'd like to move it over. Also, I agree with the above comment, but it'll have to wait until I have time to look at it and research it some more. --DanielCD 19:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:Contemporary issue of both Oedipus and Electra complexes]]
From the gene pool of two parents, children are formed with a mixture of their genes. The traits are very obvious. Physical characterists are highly observable as is behaviour and sexual type. The process and severity of the oedipus and electra complexes become more apparent when the children have grown to attain sexual partners of their own in adulthood. It is here that you can compare their partners traits with either of their parents. The strength of disolution and attachment can be recorded here, although it is worth noting that everything becomes relative. The social class is highly important, for in our evolution man and woman strive for a higher standard of life. They will not be willing to forgo comforts as experienced in childhood merely for sexual gratification. These comforts of course were formed due to identification with the parent; who share at least half of the childs genetic make up. In regard to the jealousy of opposing parent and child, then this is directly related to their own up bring from their own parents. Man and woman cannot live on food alone, as a species we interact with one another, we comfort one another, we grow, we hate one another, we deterioriate. We love one another, we grow. This is innate in all of us but due to the nature of the environment that we live in we know that this is an impossibillity all of the time. Nature addresses itself so that it may stay in balance. The reason for the child to be taken from their sexually opposite parent is directly due to the opposing parents own upbringing. Their child will receive the same amount of love and attention as they did depending upon the parents progress through the complex. Children being unaware of this will naturally feel jealous of their same sexed parent, for they are restricting/rationing their very growth. Part dissolution of these complexes are formed after the ages of five as the child grows beyond the gene identification of their parents. In their outside world their observations have grown to the point that they can recognise and class different gene charastics in others and rate them in accordance of the most pleasurable to the most distasteful. It is here that the child first realises that the growth they need can be found outside of the family home. For the upper social class then it may be more complex, they have less to be attracted to. Growth on the outside is more restricted which is probably why we have what is called a celebrity class. The reason that this complex is obsolete. The only time when it will have major impact upon society is when children constantly mate in adulthood with an oversimilar gene pool.Thus resulting in what we would call thoroughbreeding. An example of which would be the Russian royal family in the times of Rasputin. It is also possible to say that this complex will also affect the working classes if they are not give the ability to progress through the levels of society and mix their seed. It is an issue when generations become stagnant.(Comments to rodneysaccess@aol.com)(04/01/2006)
There's a separate article on Little Hans. Why not just link to it i n "See also" and cut that section out of here? 72.138.174.10 15:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] An alternate understanding
While I have never read Freud, as part of this society that uses some phrases that he coined I have developed a different understanding of the Oedipus complex. I have always been told that he Oedipus complex was a basis for fate. As in Oedipus was fated to kill his father and marry his mother, he couldn't escape his fate. Could this be worked into the article somehow?
- You are probably getting the Oedipus complex muddled up with the plot of Oedipus Rex. --144.136.123.112 21:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What about references in the cinema?
Return of the Jedi, for example, is blatantly Freudian. According to Yoda, Luke Skywalker must confront the paternal Darth Vader in order to realize Jedi Knighthood. In this particular case, however, Princess Lea (his sister) is substituting for the "mother" Should such a reference be included in this article? Smiloid 00:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Um, forgive me for being ignorant, but I'm not sure how this all ties in. Luke isn't fighting Darth Vader for Leia, he's fighting to rid the galaxy of evil and to complete his training. Could you elaborate on this? bibliomaniac15 23:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Oedipus Complex is experienced by BOTH SEXES
I've noticed that people keep 'correcting' the first paragraph of this article to suggest that the Oedipus complex is something that only males go through. This is totally inaccurate. Freud's early thinking is pretty sparse on the subject, but later on he makes it very clear that he believes that both boys and girls go through attractions to their father and anxieties of incursion from their fathers, but that each sex resolves this complex differently as a result of their physical biology. Girls experience penis envy and that leads them to becoming feminised. Boys experience castration anxiety and this leads them to identify with the father. It's absolutely crucial that this is understood or the article will keep being inaccurately 'fixed' by well-meaning people who have a shallow understanding of the theoretical underpinnings of Freud.
Good for you for pointing this out. It may be worth including a little history on Freud's view on Oedipus complex in females:
1923. Alludes to the OEdipus complex in females, but does not say much on it (The Ego and The Id). 1931. Freud's essay, "On Female Sexuality", clarifies that he now believes the OEdipus complex in females is initially a homosexual desire for the mother. 1933. Freud is now using the term "pre-Oedipal" for the homosexual wish that females have for their mothers. He argues that because females are disappointed that their mothers do not have a penis, they transfer feelings of wishes for their mothers to wishes for their fathers to produce the true Oedipus complex in females. See "New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis".
I am lucky that the university library to which I have access holds a copy of Freud's "Collected Works". ACEOREVIVED 19:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Freud's stages of thinking
I think that this article would be better structured, and would reflect contemporary Freud scholarship,
if it indicated how Freud's views on the Oedipus complex passed through different stages.
A good source for this is the article in P. Neu's "Cambridge Companion to Freud" which I have now added to the references. Interestingly, whereas this article says things suggesting an emphasis on Freud's negative reactions to Freud, I have read Jungian literature which suggests that the use of the term "Oedipus complex" by Freud in 1910 shows the influence of Jung. It would be good, in the interests of balance, if both Jungian and Freudian viewpoints could be reflected in this article. ACEOREVIVED 20:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Opening of this article is misleading
The opening of the article is very misleading. It promotes the idea that the Oedipus complex is purely about sexual attraction to the opposite sex parent, but, as we can tell from his later writings, Freud believed that the Oedipus complex in females is initially a homosexual crush on the mother. This is explained later in the article, but I wonder whether we could do with a more informed opening. Incidentally, the term "gender" should be replaced with "sex" (the two words are not synonymous, much as many people think they are). ACEOREVIVED 20:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Telemachus Complex
One might argue that the opposite of the Oedipus complex would be a "Telemachus complex".
Telemachus was the only son of Odysseus by his wife, Penelope, although Odysseus had other sons by Circe. While Odysseus was away, Penelope's suitors treated Telemachus as a mere boy. When Odysseus returned, Telemachus helped his father kill the suitors. This way, Telemachus achieved manhood and now could reproduce. Thus Odysseus' future reproductive success was assured, in that Telemachus could now supply his father with grandchildren.
Therefore, instead of sexual rivalry between father and son, there is cooperation. The father helps the son achieve manhood so that latter can reproduce, and the germ line continues. Also, the son seeks to preserve the marriage between his father and his aging mother, so that it is less likely that the father would beget more children to rival the son.Josh-Levin@ieee.org (talk) 00:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cocaine
'Dr. Jurgen von Scheidt speculated that most of Freud's psychoanalytical theory was a byproduct of his cocaine use.[4] Cocaine enhances dopaminergic neurotransmission increasing sexual interest and obsessive thinking. Chronic cocaine use can produce unusual thinking patterns due to the depletion of dopamine levels in the prefrontal cortex.'
This appears to be simply a criticism of Freud's theories in general. It does not appear to be specifically about the Oedipus complex, and therefore does not belong in an article that is specifically about the Oedipus complex. I am going to remove it. Skoojal (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] People who remove their own eyes
'Recently, a systematic examination of published cases of people, who, like the Oedipus Rex, actually removed one or more of their own eyes, found that a poorly resolved erotic attachment to a parent was not a plausible explanation for their conduct.'
This is bizarre, and I question its relevance. When did Freud ever claim that people removed their own eyes because of the oedipus complex?Skoojal (talk) 20:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fabrication
I've learned in a class The History of Psychology that Freud initially released a paper discussing interviews he had with adult patients who had been sexually molested during childhood. His published report was not well received, so he changed his stance. A further report from Freud stated that he believed the statements given by the adult patients were fantasized, and actually those patients had desired that sexual interaction with their parents. This changes a lot concerning the Oedipus Complex. I figured because most of this article isn't sourced, and I can source this one, it should go in the article, but give me a little while so I can source everything properly. Infonation101 (talk) 19:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
