Talk:Norwich University

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Contents

[edit] Proposed move

It should be noted that a move of the page Norwich to Norwich, Norfolk cites this University as a reason. Go to the Talk page for Norwich for more info.

[edit] stat without source

Removed below statistic from article due to no source being provided. If a source is available please cite and add back to article:

"Currently, as of 2004 1 in 3 civilian women attending Norwich University were subject to sexual assault and or rape during academic career at Norwich."

-Redjar 02:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, thats quite false.

-Desk Jockey 20:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

This is extraordinarily false.

This is the most bald face lie I've seen on the internet yet

[edit] Currently???

Listen, unless you plan on updating the page every year to list the Regimental Commander's name, putting currently and his name isn't very encyclopedic. He himself is not yet notable outside of Norwich.--Vidkun 14:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Buildings

Is it really nescessary to have a section about other Norwich buildings? Desk Jockey 15:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not necessary, but interesting.

Happy with my additions? Desk Jockey 07:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headquarters?

The article states that HQ is seperate from the Battalions, when did this happen? in 1990-1994, HQ (all of the staff sections) were part of provisional battalion. I recognize this is not standard military practice (except for org with a special troops battalion), but it is how things were done while I was a Cadet.--Vidkun 14:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I always thought it marched as part of Provisional too. Desk Jockey 22:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Team Nickname

69.121.58.206- It's the cadets... the nickname of the teams is "The Cadets." If it was the nickname of the school, then you'd be right; it's not, and that's why there's a Div III thing after the nickname. Desk Jockey 05:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SIze of the corps?

Maybe I'm just missing it, but stats on the number of cadets and number of non-cadets in the total student body would be useful. GCW50 02:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Civil War?

Why not some info on alums service in the Civil War? I'm sure there had to have been some --AW 08:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template for other military colleges

Currently, there is a disagreement over the schools for which Norwich "...became the template..." primarily with regards to Texas A&M and VMI. This probably won't be covered by a Rook Book, but there must be some source (NU or other) that gives this kind of statement. Please cite a source. To stem revert wars until this issue is resolved, I'll remove the named schools completely. When a reliable cite is provided, hopefully we'll be able to consider the matter settled. ZueJay (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Running a google search brought me to "The Education of Engineers in America Before the Morrill Act of 1862" by Terry Reynolds writing in the History of Education Quarterly. On page 464 of Vol 32, No 4, he states "Following Partridge's example, Virginia in 1839 and South Carolina in 1843 established military academies to provide trained citizen-soldiers and officers for their state militia." For this paragraph Reynolds sites, for VMI's history, One Hundred Years at VMI by William Couper and Henry Wise's Drawing Out the Man: The VMI Story; for the Citadel he sites The Story of the Citadel by O.J. Bond and the History of Higher Education in South Carolina, With a Sketch of the Free School System by Colyer Meriwether. If so desired, I'll too provide page numbers.

In the dogeared Rook Book that I dug out of a box, it's on page 8 in "Brief History of Norwich University" by Robert Poirier.

Regardless of the above, Norwich is to those schools important because before it the Gov't had a full monopoly on professional training for officers. Had Partridge not skipped town in 1817, then West Point and the pre-colonial institutions would have remained the sole sources for higher education. However, he did leave and founded his own school. Because his was both popular nationally and to his students, many copies were created and many state legislatures were lobbied. Indeed the Morrill Act (from Vermont's representative from 1855 to 1867, Justin Morrill) itself was an idea that Partridge had been kicking around Congress since the 1840's. It wasn't until the 1860's when the Southerners left the Congress, that the Land Grant colleges were finally authorized. Really that line shouldn't just be about the other senior military colleges but the Land Grants as well. Desk Jockey 05:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I love the Rook Book - just don't have one handy. Okay, so you reworded a bit. I've added the first reference you cited, and changed one of the words to make the sentence more...global. Let's try that. With the reference, it comes down to word choice. Thanks! ZueJay (talk) 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Good luck! My experience here on Wikipedia suggests that you will still get partisan attacks on the statement that NU served as a template for anyone else.--Vidkun 15:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. I encountered a young man from West Pont who was shocked when I informed him (a bit miffed he didn't all ready know) that NU was the "birthplace of ROTC."
Anyway, that's why I think word-choice for this sentence is important. I have a preference for something more like "impetus" "inspiration" "stimulus" "incentive" "motivation" instead of "template." It's just a matter of choosing the right one. The source cited above does not use the word "template" but more implies that NU was the motivator or inspiration for further development of schools like Norwich. ZueJay (talk) 15:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
As a VMI graduate, I would like as little association as possible with Norwich and Citadel. VMI is completely different from the other schools. VMI is the Nation's only classical state military college. Enough said.Koonoonga 22:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the discussion here.
The difference between what you'd like and history seems to be rather great in this matter. VMI and the Citadel were both creations of their respective state's legislatures. The Citadel and Norwich have civilian students. VMI, the Citadel and Norwich all come from Partridge's citizen-soldier idea. Do you have that much of a distaste for non-military students? Desk Jockey 23:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
VMI certainly did not come from Partridge's ideas. Check VMI's history...your sources are garbage. To answer your question, no, I think civilian students are great at CIVILIAN SCHOOLS. I only have a distaste for folks who try to compare weaker versions of military schools to VMI...Good day and good luck in your quest...Koonoonga 01:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
"Check VMI's history..." This is why we try to cite third party sources. I would welcome another third-party source that states another viewpoint; we can certainly incorporate the disagreement into the article. Just so you know, Norwich originally had only cadet students until times changed, and social and financial difficulties forced the university to accept civilians. It has not been a readily accepted reality for everyone. ZueJay (talk) 01:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Funny thing, in late 1820's and early 1830's Capt. Partridge accepted a number (a dozen at the most) of non-military students as well as women. They had all left by the 40's, but they were there. Desk Jockey 03:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
That is kinda funny. Definitely not a well-known fact. ZueJay (talk) 03:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we get a citation for that, because I think it would be a good addition to the article.--Vidkun 12:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I had originally included it in the late 20th section by saying that civilians and women "returned" to Norwich but God help me if I can find out how I knew that. It was either a conversation with Prof Lord or in one of the university history volumes in the library. I'm not near them, so I suspect that that'll have to wait.Desk Jockey 14:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys, don't bother. I can no longer assume good faith from Koonoonga or his predecessor Marshall3 when it comes to any information about VMI. In their eedits and comments, anything that contradicts their claims that VMI is better than/different than/founded differently/influenced differently than any other place is all wrong. They don't want facts, they want peacock words about themselves.--Vidkun 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As a graduate of VMI, I found this discussion pretty interesting. Certainly, the founders of VMI would have been aware of Norwich. I seem to remember that I was taught it was **an** inspiration, but I think "the inspiration" might still be too strong. Perhaps better would be Norwich had "an influence" on the founding of VMI. Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to One Hundred Years at VMI by William Couper and Henry Wise's Drawing Out the Man: The VMI Story. They are highly respected sources in the VMI community, and you could quote them specifically to help quiet debate. For what it is worth, the formation of VMI came out of a desire to quell disturbances by militia guarding the local state armory. It was thought students could be kept too busy to cause as much trouble. My memory is fuzzy, but it seems to me that many influnces shaped VMI beyond that initial desire. Norwich would certainly be one of them along with the federal academies, Les Ecole Polytechnique (thanks especially to Col. Claudius Crozet), and other state military institutions as they came on the scene. One may argue which is best, but none grew in isolation (including Norwich). Each probably had multiple sources of inspiration, and certainly the needs of the communities and military affected them. Many military colleges and universities have disappeared or transitioned into civilian colleges, yet the private, state and federal colleges likely influenced each other as they were born and grew.--Loubocop 12:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Norwich firsts

Beyond being the oldest American private military academy, I believe ABC reported that it was the first in the country to accept women (early to mid 70s I think they said). Does anyone have data on that? CApitol3 17:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's already in there. Desk Jockey 03:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Math & Science

No one calls it complex, "on the street" it's either Math and Science or Math & Science Building. I suggest using the versions more likely to be used on campus. Desk Jockey 04:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...I always called it "engineering". If I said Math and Science, it was with the complex (you know those math and science types;) ). Maybe the safest bet is to use the terminology of the University (ie - administration, or maybe webmasters)[1]. I don't think Wikipedia stays strong utilizing "street cred" sources. ZueJay (talk) 04:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of achievements

Strikes me as that section is unnecessary. If we expect readers to need a two paragraph repeat of "firsts" in the first three paragraphs then we've not a very high opinion of their mental abilities. I'm all for working in any new information, but we shouldn't do this


Of what was placed in the new section, 3 of the 5 facts were not in the history prior to its placement. And the other two were just randomly stuck into a section. This way we give those accomplishments one section of its own with details, as they all relate to social change. Than we remove the random sentence stuck in random places about those accomplishments. It makes for a more informative and concise page.
We should do this.
68.55.109.227 03:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norwich not first SMC to admit women

If all we are using is the stated claim from NU as a source, then we still need to remove the claim about it being the first, as shown here, because either North Georgia College or Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University is first, as they both admitted females in 1973.--Vidkun (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

As I remember, it wasn't my choice to put that slug there (my original text in the body talked about being before the service academies) so yeah, that should fix that. The issue with the NU website is that that bit is included in a section called "More Firsts."Desk Jockey (talk) 00:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)