Talk:Norway Debate

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Reading this article, I'm not feeling any wiser as to what the conflicting views of the debate was. Exactly what parts of the "general conduct of the war and the government of Neville Chamberlain" was criticised and why? I feel like the article is missing something important. - Kvaks 20:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence that stated Keyes' contributions were later found to be incorrect (etc) - if putting that in then we need to be more specific. Also the main points about his speech was firstly his dramatic appearance and secondly the weight that whatever he said carried (irrelevant of what he actually said!)

Can I ask if anyone has the list of 33 Tory rebels? This is important as after the war, this group had very high prestige in the Conservative party. The list is crucial to understanding the ascendency of one nation conservativsm after the conflict. I believe Macmillan, Eden and Profumo were among the rebels, but I cannot be certain.

Eden wasn't a rebel - he was Secretary of State for the Dominions at the time! Macmillan and Profumo were amongst the rebels and I'll fish out the full list at some point soon. Timrollpickering 01:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The rebels

The list I have is as follows. Feel free to edit this to use the most common form of the name.

33 "official" Conservatives

Note that not all of them were from the One Nation wing of the party.

• Alfred Wise
• Charles Stuart Taylor
• Colin Mark Partick
• Derrick Wellesley Gunston
• Duff Cooper
• Earl Winterton
• Edward Herbert Keeling
• Edward Louis Spears
• Godfrey Nicholson
• Hamilton William Kerr
• Harold Macmillan
• Henry Walter Burton
• Hubert Duggan
• Hugh Molson
• John Allan Cecil Wright
• John Profumo
• John Robert Jermain Macnamara
• Leo Amery
• Mavis Tate
• Paul Emrys-Evans
• Quintin Hogg
• Ralph Glyn
• Richard Law
• Robert Boothby
• Robert Bower
• Roger Keyes
• Ronald Tree
• Samuel Hammersley
• Somerset de Chair
• Stuart Hugh Minto Russell
• Viscount Wolmer
• Viscountess Astor
• William Anstruther-Gray

4 Liberal Nationals

• Frank Medlicott
• Herbert Walter Butcher
• James Henderson Stewart
• Leslie Hore-Belisha

2 National Labour

• Harold Nicolson
• Stephen King-Hall

Also two independents who normally gave support to the government:

• Daniel Lipson - Independent Conservative MP for Cheltenham.
• Austin Hopkinson - A rare case of a very successful independent MP. He had taken the National whip until November 1938, though continued to give some support after that.

Timrollpickering 16:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this should go into the article in some form (if we could do it without taking up too much space then that would be good), but it should have a source. Could you give a reference for this list? Andreww 10:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It was compiled from a mix of sources - mainly Hansard (for names - irritatingly it didn't give party affiliations until very recently); The Times guide to the House of Commons & F. W. S. Craig for affiliations in 1935 (plus by-elections) and "British Political Facts" by David Butler and Anne Sloman for party changes. This may be coming too close to original research to use the list as it stands (although I'm sure there's a book or journal article listing it somewhere, though I wanted my own bash) although as all the allegiances and by-elections are on the relevant pages anyway it is arguably little more than a summation of existing info. Timrollpickering 18:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I certainly do not think that is too close to original research, a policy that should probably be renamed "no original ideas" to clarify the unusual meaning given to the word "research". Anyway, would the following be ok for a footnote to, say, a table? "This list of government rebels was compiled from voting records recorded in Hansard (full reference) with party affiliation taken from Craig (full reference) and Butler and Sloman (British Political Facts, rest of reference)." Andreww 21:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I have just stumbled on this debate after writing James Henderson-Stewart's biography. There are other sources which can be honestly cited. If you have the Times Digital Archive, then the The Times report entitled "Voting Analysed: 33 Conservatives In The Minority", published on page 6 of the edition of Friday, May 10, 1940 will be an adequate source. In addition the book "Your M.P." by "Gracchus" (Victor Gollancz Ltd, 1944), lists it as Division F on pages 95-110. Sam Blacketer 21:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hubert Duggan

Just to note I have changed 'Herbert Duggan' to his correct name 'Hubert Duggan' in the list above. Sam Blacketer 23:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement

This article could use more citations (perhaps cites to specific pages of Hansard?) and some revisions. It might read better to take the debate in textual paragraphs rather than bulleted ones. Following the debate section could be a new section talking about how the activities outside the House, as a result of the debate, led to Chamberlain's fall. I would do it myself but my sources are limited, outside of Nicolson's diary which I have now cited. (I can add more from the diary on an aftermath section.) Kablammo (talk) 02:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)