Talk:Norse paganism

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Contents

[edit] pápiska

As far as I know 'pápiska' just means "papery" and is (was) used as a denigrating post-reformation term for Catholicism. The Icelandic/Old Norse word for heathendom is 'heiðni' or 'heiðinn dómr'. Haukurth 00:56, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] IP User:82.120.65.19 versus P.MacUidhir

This article should not be called "Norse paganism," but Åsatru, the correct Norwegian/Icelandic name for the faith.

- anoymous user editing from IP: User:82.120.65.19

Guess what? Åsatru is Germanic Neopaganism, not Norse paganism or Germanic paganism. There is a rather large difference between each of them.
Try going here if you want to make the sort of edits you have tried to make to Norse paganism.
http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85satru
P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 01:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

"Paganism" is a derogatory word invented by the victors writing history,

- anoymous user editing from IP: User:82.120.65.19

You demonstrate an ignorant and 'Åsatru-centric' point of view with your edits here rather than a knowledgable and neutral POV. Your opinions are noted, but they are not factual, and thus have no place in the contents of the article here.
P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 01:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

and has no place in the main article describing a faith. It's like calling the article describing Christianity "Christian badandevilbeliefism."

- anoymous user editing from IP: User:82.120.65.19

I think you might want to look up the word 'anachronism' before editing here again. Your POV is positively afire with anachronisms and a few logical fallacies that readily come to mind. Have a good day, sir or ma'am.
P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 01:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

82.120.65.19, why do you insist on Norwegian "Åsatru" anyway? The coinage was 19th century Swedish Asetro, 1970s Icelandic Ásatrú. It is a neologism denoting a subset of Germanic Neopaganism. Try to read and absorb our careful explanations of terminology and etymology before you blunder all over it with your preconceptions. If you really want to avoid "paganism" or "heathen" (some Neopagans have positively demanded to be called "Heathens", earlier. Wth?), use "Forn Sed" and cognates, which is, however, likewise a retronym from a Christian perspective (before there was a "Ny Sidr", the "Forn Sidr" was simply the "Sidr". If any of this isn't clear to you, I suggest you do some more reading before editing. dab (ᛏ) 09:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

We should finally move the "worship" part of Norse mythology over here, or else make this a redirect after all. At present, the article isn't very good. Also, why does the "Texts" section discuss terminology rather than texts? dab (ᛏ) 09:56, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

This entry is just horrible. Compared to the Celtic mythology entry, it is just pitiful. Much of the content is factually incorrect, as if an elementary school student wrote it for a school report. Rather than totally gutting it, I tried to polish it up: corrected tenses throughout and went through and fixed broken links, corrected grammar, removed or rephrased assumptions for NPOV, etc. but it still is in really bad shape. A few things:
  • Weren't Irish slaves the first practitioners of Christianity in Scandinavia?
  • Who hypothesizes a connection with runes and "Turkish or Orkhon script"?
  • Isn't pagan a noun not a verb, therefore 'paganismus' incorrect usage?
If anyone has content disputes or contests the alterations I've made, knock yourself out - this entry is in bad shape, and the changes I've made are tentative until a real entry can be cobbled together. Maybe a re-direct or compilation of this and Norse Mythology isn't a bad idea.HroptR 08:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

This article seems to compete with norse mythology.

If norse paganism is a subset of Norse mythology and / or german paganism, then this article should be merged with the appropriate article. The norse mythology page is well written, if a little short in some sections, but the norse paganism and german paganism pages are badly written. Both note briefly where their respective subjects can be found who practiced them, and the sourcing. German paganism mentions how the religion changed over time (and indirectly what the religion was. The reference is by no means enough to merit an article). Neither article distinctly mentions what the religions actually entail (e.g. a summary of beliefs, major religious figures, etc.). That is a huge problem in an encyclopedia that tries to be all inclusive.

Paganism has gained a negative connotation, I don't think that point is arguable. Because of this, the article's name is derogatory towards that religion. Both norse paganism and german paganism should be renamed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.250.119.145 (talk • contribs) .

religion and mythology are difficult to untangle. This article is about Norse mythology qua cult, and could be a valid subarticle of Norse mythology (the "worship" section). I don't know why you think "paganism" has negative connotations, let alone why the point 'isn't arguable'. Obviously polytheism has 'negative connotations' to monotheists, but that isn't the term, it's the thing itself, no matter what you call it. If you don't like the term "paganism", this could be at Norse polytheism (like Celtic polytheism) dab (ᛏ) 17:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Norse polytheism... Now that's a good idea. We've argued about this usage of paganism before, and I think it has more to do with resentment of forced conversion and being identified by a foreign Roman /Latin paradigm. Much like the "Islamic Rajputs" some people feel very strongly about naming conventions. I was recently made aware that this disdain for the term pagan is also shared by practitioners of Ancient Greek religion in Greece [1] and is part of the reason why all of the entries dealing with Ancient Greek religion are being merged into Hellenic_Polytheism. It's not really that important of an issue to me, other than that paganism has become a byword for many modern connotations in the USA, including moral relativism, Joseph Campbell universalism, gay and transgendered political agendas, polyamory, sionism, drug use, etc. -- HroptR 21:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Good points. For myself, I prefer 'pagan/paganism' since 'polytheism' is a more specific form of paganism, to my POV. Same goes for 'polydeism', et cetera. 'Paganism' serves better as a catch-all term, and it is, according to my readings, far more commonly used in academic works to refer to this sort of thing. Negative connotations are something to be considered, but to make Wikipedia politically-correct at the price of less accuracy is not a good idea.
P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 22:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you aware of examples of pre-christian Norse or Germanic religion which are not polytheistic? I would be interested in them just out of curiosity. Only Heathenry will suffice in my opinion :D But naming conventions are not really an issue worth fighting over in this venue, as long as accuracy is striven for. Some people obviously see the term as pejorative and perhaps confusing, but I think that it's kind of late to change usage unless it is to polytheism which still doesn't quite encompass ancestor veneration and the animistic aspects of the pre-christian beliefs. -- HroptR 22:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Your last comments answer your first question for me. :) The ancestor veneration and apparent elements of animism are, to my thinking, more adequately covered by 'paganism' than 'polytheism', due to how those terms tend to be defined.
P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 22:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

If you're not in the US, you may not understand the bit about paganism as a negative term. That's understandable, but still. In the US, calling someone a pagan is a lot like calling them a heathen, infidel, etc.

Polytheism might work, though it's not as neutral as religion. It's certainly not as bad as pagan.

I think the article best belongs as a subsection of the Norse mythology article. Actually, as two subsections. One section discussing relics / archeological finds / etc. from norse mythology, the other discussing continued practices that could be considered cultist. Many articles include continued practice sections: see shakers for an article that handled the subject extremely well. I might add that the shaker belief system died out a while ago (and who could be shocked at that?).

P I don't know how you did that signature thing. Send me a message of some sort with methodology, or just edit in for me please.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.250.119.145 (talk • contribs) .


[edit] Merge

After consideration, I am now oposed to merging Norse_paganism with Norse_mythology. If no one has a problem with it, I'm going to pull the template. I'll try to make the time to help flesh this entry out. WeniWidiWiki 03:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

In the time between the last post and now, there have only been a few edits on this article. Furthermore, because 2 were a vandalism - repair group, there has been only 1 real edit to the article, and it has been only to rearrange some links. I'm still not clear on what this article means, but the subjects discussed in the article are only vaguely related so I'm going to give it a new tag.

24.250.119.145 23:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

"Problems with Asatru theology No systematic unified theology for the Norse gods seems to have ever been written down (and may not have ever existed). Most of what has survived was either stories (such as the Prose Edda, writen by Snorri Sturluson about 200 years after Iceland became Christianized) or accounts by Christian monks who came to Scandinavia.[citation needed] The monks wrote down accounts about the native religion which are unreliable at best. The result is while the Asatru know that the gods were worshiped at one time, they don't know why the gods were worshipped. In the stories that survive, the Aesir do very little that in directly beneficial for humans.

So the modern worship of the Aesir is mostly a matter of modern invention, much like Wiccan religion."

Is there sources for this statement?

Bill

June 18, 2007

[edit] Norse polytheism or Norse paganism

See the conversation above in the section Cleanup

"Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." --Nutshell of Wikipedia:Naming conventions

Google:

  • about 10,700 English pages for "Norse paganism" -wikipedia
  • about 454 English pages for "Norse polytheism" -wikipedia

Google scholar

  • about 35 for "Norse paganism"
  • "Norse polytheism" - did not match any articles

Google books

  • 10 of 183 on "Norse paganism"
  • 6 on "Norse polytheism".
  • intitle:Norse intitle:paganism - did not match any documents
  • intitle:Norse intitle:polytheism - did not match any documents

Both common usage and scholarly usage are heavily biased to "Norse paganism". If the article is to be moved from that which the guidelines advise then the move should go through WP:RM so that the wider community can decide if the move can be justified on some other Wikipedia criteria. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your move as per my note at Talk:Germanic_paganism#Germanic_Polytheism. Haukur 09:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


A suggestion, please, if using the term at all, use the terms "pagan", "heathen" etc for any of the foreign religions, e.g. the zoroastrianism, the abrahamitic (judaisms, scientology, catholic, lutheran, orthodox, etc), Buddhism etc when speaking of the Norse Religion. The Norse Religion is only 'pagan' from an outsider's perspective; very much as christianity is an abomination in most of the non-christian world. I realize it is a an eternally sensitive topic, but please who are the christian pagans to deem? In fact, the saints worshiped by catholics' outnumber the humble number deities in the Norse Religion. What I do object to is the patronizing tone over polytheism; in fact most Hindus are polytheists and they outnumber most other religions. The solution is clear. Call the Norse Religion for what it is, a religion! Rename it Norse Religion. As for the Google argument: 24,300 hits for "Norse Religion"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.182.142.44 (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)