Talk:Normandy Landings

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Contents

[edit] Scope

Neptune was not just the naval side. Neptune was the "assault operation" of Overlord, all-inclusive, and involved the naval forces, the invading divisions, and the airborne drops.

[edit] xx

Removed this text:

2. Neptun was the German counterattack by German ground forces against Soviet units near the Black Sea at Myschanko-Berg on 6 April 1943. Part of the Battle of Stalingrad.

First of all, the Battle of Stalingrad was over by April 1943. Second, there was a Soviet operation "Neptune," which I plan to add to this page in a moment, which suggests the above text might have been a mistake (but not a mis-correction; it was originally added just like that, modulo misspelling "Stalingrad"). Third, as far as I can tell, there is no "Myschanko-Berg."

However, I think I've found the original source: [1]

Neptun                 D       06.04.43    Gegenoffensive am Schwarzen Meer beim Myschanko-Berg
Neptun                 D       1944        Anti-Partisanen-Aktionen auf der Sporaden-Inseln vor (später Koralle genannt)

Someone who knows German want to translate? --Quuxplusone 16:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I may (or may not have made the OP on Neptun, but my records show ...

NEPTUN “NEPTUNE” (GER 43) Counterattack by German ground forces against Soviet units near the Black Sea at Myschanko-Berg on 6 April, 1943.

Perhaps I messed it up in retyping it in this format. Perhaps someone else mis-corrected it. In any case, here is the real deal. Paul, in Saudi 17:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Navies at Normandy

First, apologies for seeming to be an over-sensitive Brit.

Second, in no way do I wish to minimise the courage and suffering of US forces in Europe. The actions at Omaha beach, St Lo, Bastogne, Eindhoven & Nijmegen, and elsewhere were outstandingly brave and determined. Particularly so on foreign ground.

Phew.

BUT (here goes), there is sensitivity in Europe, and not just in France, about the Second World War in Europe being given an all-American gloss (usually by Hollywood - John Wayne did it all?). So, although US troops and aircraft were desparately needed to bolster the failing British manpower reserves, at Normandy it was actually the Royal Navy (British, not English, please note) that took the lead in providing naval support. To list the relatively few US ships (I'm sure there were more than these) that were involved without a similar reference to other nations, apart from the "English" navy, rubs some of us up the wrong way. It also overlooks contributions from the Free French and Norwegian navies, and probably others.

I won't delete the list of US ships - that would be disrespectful, I may add to it. And I do know that the US Navy's focus was in the Pacific.

I hope that I've not caused offence, but I do feel lots better for that rant. Folks at 137 23:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This point is well-taken, but the role of the US Navy in Overlord was not quite as insignificant as implied here (the gunfire support to Utah and Omaha Beaches were by USN ships). And John Wayne, except for portraying a real-life soldier in The Longest Day, never appeared in any war movie involving the war in Europe, so that's a straw dog. That said, the roles of the RN and other navies needs to be documented accurately because they did provide the lion's share of escort and support--Buckboard 05:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Tanaside/ Tantaside

Was USS TANASIDE not in fact HMS TANASIDE a hunter class escort destroyer launched from Yarrow dockyards in April 1942. She was deployed for antisubmarine and antiaircraft duties

The name Tanaside was taken from a USN report; it may have been a typo. Checking. BTW, queries should be on talk page not main article. Folks at 137 15:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Found this site [2]. Ship appears to be HMS Tanatside, although Tanaside/ Tantaside spellings are also extant. The operational detail seems to confirm the info. Folks at 137 21:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kriegsmarine fuel shortages

Re: recent query about this assertion. Try [3], third footnote (already quoted as a reference). There may be other sources. Folks at 137 22:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch ships

I've added the Dutch cruiser Sumatra to the cruiser list, and the gunboat Soemba to the other ships list. This makes the Dutch (naval) presence complete.

[edit] Picture of bombardment

At the National Archives there's a picture of the map representing the naval bombardments. It's British government, so almost certainly in the public domain. Oberiko 01:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

This needs to be merged into Battle of Normandy, since that article has changed from being about the entire campaign (Operation Overlord) to only being about the invasion phase (Operation Neptune). DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that there is discussion about possible renaming this article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/World War II task force. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moves to be made

Unless there are objections, we'll be using the following structure:

  • Operation Overlord: Overview of the everything (sans things like Dragoon) up until the liberation of Paris (June 6 - Aug 25)
    • Invasion of Normandy: Invasion and establishment (June 6 - mid-July (Goodwood / Cobra))
      • Normandy Landings: Sub-page focusing on the naval and amphibious portion. A.K.A. Operation Neptune
    • Breakout from Normandy: The breakout and chase up to the liberation of Paris (Mid-July - Aug 25)

Disambiguation pages

  • Battle of Normandy: Disambiguation linking to all of the above, plus other battles in Normandy (such as during the Hundred Years' War)
  • Normandy Campaign: Same as Battle of Normandy, but with additional note of it being an official campaign in the American European Theater of Operations
  • Operation Neptune: Disambiguation, takes over the current disambig page.

I'll likely move the pages in a few days. Please direct any feedback here, as I'm posting this notice on several pages. Oberiko (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Normandy landings

Should this page be moved to Normandy landings or is the term Normandy Landings well enough known to be a proper noun? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I was debating that myself. It seems to usually appear as "landings", but "Landings" is far from uncommon. I'd err on the side of caution and go with the capitals, since it seems to be an accepted full name of the event. Oberiko (talk) 17:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

The article is pretty interesting. From an encyclopedic point of view though, it is too much concerned with the military details. The political and other causes behind the landings should also be covered. Why were the landings decided at this point? Why not a year or two earlier ? Why infantry landings without armour? and other such questons. Can anyone help? 90.11.102.208 (talk) 16:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Posting parts of the German article

It will sound wierd because I used an online translation thing, but here it goes:

Operation Neptune from Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia To changes to: Navigation, search

The title of this article is ambiguous. Other meanings are performed under operation Neptune (concept purification).

The operation Neptune was a part under the deck name Operation Overlord carried out landing of the allies in Normandy in the second world war. Neptune was, on this occasion, the storm attack on the German connections in Normandy and the establishment of a bridgehead. The operation Neptune began with the first bigger practise manoeuvres in January, 1944 and culminated in the landing of the allies in Normandy on the 6th June, 1944, the D-Day. The end of the operation can be dated on 30th June, 1944. The higher operation Overlord ended only 19th August when the allied armed forces had crossed the river his in France. The operation Neptune was the known land operation most extensive up to now of the world history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yojimbo501 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Among the rest, beside the mission purpose to gain a foothold in Normandy occupied by the German the operation Neptune should also serve to protect the landing crafts against opposing attacks from the air and from lake. In addition, should be made sure by the operation that no opposing ship got to know in the canal from the forthcoming invasion. Besides the landing should be supported actively by the bombardment of the Atlantic embankment in the area of the landing zones with heavy ship artillery. After the successful landing the care of the bridgeheads with supplies was organized under this name.

The operation was split in many other small operations to confuse the German defense. For same reason many phantom federations which have never really existed "were also 'put up". The table gives an overview about the explained partial operations (without practise operations) with overview about the operations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yojimbo501 (talk • contribs) 13:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, that was a taste of it. Let me know if there is any specific part you want to hear. By the way the quality of German featured articles may be lower than ours (no offense to Germans). Yojimbo501 (talk) 13:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Now we will compare the German begining section to ours:

The Normandy Landings, also known as Operation Neptune, was the assault and amphibious operations of the Allied invasion of Normandy, France; part of Operation Overlord. D-Day for the operation, postponed 24 hours, became June 6, 1944. The opening assault was conducted in two phases, an air assault landing of American and British (including a Canadian airborne battalion) airborne divisions shortly after midnight, and an amphibious landing of Allied infantry and armoured divisions on the coast of France commencing at 06:30 British Double Summer Time. It required the transport of soldiers and material from England and Wales by troop carrier air planes and ships, the assault landings, air support, naval interdiction of the English Channel and naval fire-support. There were also subsidiary operations to distract the Kriegsmarine and prevent its interference in the landing areas.

Over 1,000,000 personnel were involved, including 195,700 Allied naval and merchant navy personnel. Neptune took place on the Cotentin Peninsula, the east bank of the Orne River, and the Baie de la Seine, offshore and along the Normandy coast where five invasion beaches were assaulted: Gold, Juno, Omaha, Sword and Utah.

I find ours more specific but some german parts were of interest:

"The operation Neptune began with the first bigger practise manouvres in January, 1944 and culminated in the landing of the allies in Normandy on the 6th June, 1944, the D-Day. The end of the operation can be dated on 30th June, 1944. The higher operation Overlord ended only 19th August when the allied armed forces had crossed the river his in France."

That was a taste of it again. Let me know if there is any specific part you want to hear. By the way the quality of German featured articles may be lower than ours (no offense to Germans). Yojimbo501 (talk) 13:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Start?

Why is this start class? And why can something with such less information, citations and links like Fires on the Plain be start class while this stays at start class even with a lot more information? It seems most articles fall under start and it makes that class sort of confusing. Yojimbo501 (talk) 13:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Please take a look at the quality scale. This article is not suitably referenced and it is not free of grammatical errors, and is not in tune with the Manual of Style. JonCatalan (talk) 16:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tanks

The reason the Americans and British didn't have armor on the ground? The tanks were supposed to "float" to shore in inflatable rubber tank rafts. This failed miserably, with 32 out of 35 sherman tanks sinking at omaha. Worth including? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.56.52.15 (talk) 01:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So long as its balanced by the notes of the other beaches where the DD tanks did land successfully and the follow up tank units (mine clearers, Centaurs and AVREs were landed into the shallows to wade ashore, or on the beach to clear the defenders. GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article coverage

The article notes that this only covers the initial weeks of the campaign - ending in mid june. The aritcle nicley links to the article covering the invasion itself but there doesnt appear to be any link to the rest of the campaign - July-August.

What article covers this?