Talk:Norman Borlaug/Archive 1

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The article says:

His efforts in the 1960s to introduce genetically-modified seeds...


Is "genetically-modifed" the correct word to use here? I don't think that the term as commonly understood applies to the techniques that Borlaug used.


No it is incorrect. My grandfather worked in seed corn hybridization at Iowa State. Hybrid corn is not GM, which refers to actual genetic manipulation by laboratory techniques, not cross-breeding. -- Decumanus 18:28, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
On a note here, while green revolution wheats were crossbred, they were not hybrid -- cowsandmilk 22:14, 19 Dec 2004

Contents

Recent improvement of article

Stunning. Congrats & warmfuzzies. You know who you are. –Hajor 22:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Throughs on the article

To-do for yield impact section

  • What year did India become self-sufficient for food production? 1974 for all cereals
  • When were they introdued to China and Latin America, how much impact did the varieties have there?
  • Should it discuss the no green revolution scenario pdf? Or is that better material for the Green Revolution article?
    • Is this denying that there was a Green Revolution, or saying that we don't need another one in the future? --brian0918™
      • They are statistical estimates of what the world would be like today (poverty, hunger etc.) if there wasn't a green revolution.--nixie 06:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some more general additions

  • Were semi-dwarf varieties necessary to introduce two cropping cycles a year?
    • I think the point of the double seasons was to more quickly create these useful varieties. I'll see what else I can find. --brian0918™ 03:27, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Rice research, Bourlag didn't do any, (fascinating that the dwarf varieties both relied on mutations in the same hormonal pathway) should probably be in the Green Revolution Article.
  • Should there be a more extended summary of the Green Revolution in the Effect of his work section (I think this section should be remaned, but I can't think what to) Rice information could also go here? --nixie 03:10, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I'll look at some of these things. I definitely think some of the content needs rearranged and the headers should be redone (and there should be more headers). --brian0918™ 03:27, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've had a go at a reorganisation, I've commented out a few bits and pieces that could move to the general article, the Green Revolution section could use a little expansion. I'll keep working on the fact checking.--nixie 06:49, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Needs a little fix-up.

The second paragraph of Borlaug and the Green Revolution has an incomplete first sentence. I don't quite know what the author was intending to say there.

Also, the part about how wheat had to be stored in the schools in India is duplicated and should be pared down to just one mention of it.

  • Fixed. Thanks for the help. --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 17:02 (UTC)

Honors and recognition / Quote

The naming of a street after him in Cd Obregón was described as "especially satisfying" -- unless that's a direct quote, it sounded rather excessive in light of the string of other honors below. I had a shot at rewording it.

I physically cringed the first time I read the quote from Penn and Teller -- the reference to Sagan and his billions is neat, but the words "And most of them were a different race from him" say more about Penn Jillette than about Borlaug. Would replacing that line with ellipsis dots be appropriate?

The World Peace Window in Minneapolis sounded like an impressive piece of art, so I searched for it. [1] Oh well. Nice idea, though. I suppose stained glass isn't the easiest medium to work in. –Hajor 17:03, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • The "especially satisfying" is from the Nobel prize site's biography of him. It meant that having that street named after him was personally satisfying to him, more-so than the other honors, since he doesn't put much stock in all these big awards he gets. I've taken out that part of the Penn and Teller quote. I understand what Penn was trying to get at, and I agree with him, but understand that it's more a reflection of Penn than Borlaug. If widespread famine had been going on in the US as well, Borlaug would've made it a primary target. I think he basically made a list of the places that were in the worst condition and could be helped the most by his work, and just started packing his bags. --brian0918™ 17:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK. Do you want to add "which he described as 'especially satisfying'" or words to that effect, or can it be left as it is? (From what I can see on the Obregón street map in my road atlas -- which, unfortunately, spells it "Dr. Norman Bourlong" -- it's a pretty big street: major N-S avenue leading into the downtown area.) And, IMHO, good call on the P&T quotation. –Hajor 17:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • I clarified the street sentence. Can you find a map of the city online anywhere? What's the exact name of the street as it appears on your map? --brian0918™ 19:03, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What I've got is a tiny through-route map of the city that appears in the back pages of a road atlas covering the whole country; it just labels it "Dr. Norman Bourlong". On line, there's one here (not very good) and a pictorial one here. Both seem to indicate the name changes to "5 de febrero" when it hits the south rim city centre. The second one labels it "C. Norman E. Borlaug", which indicates that it's a "calle" (street), not an "avenida". (The first map spells it Borlaung, too -- must be very common for it be spelled wrong by the locals. ) –Hajor 19:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) PS: Regarding the spelling, this edit is probably telling, too.)

  • I think it's a common misspelling. I found some Spanish-language journal articles that spell it wrong, as well as several English ones. Google definitely needs to incorporate Soundex searching. --brian0918™ 19:37, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fiddly details

A couple of quick comments with a view to the WP:FA drive. –Hajor 30 June 2005 19:16 (UTC)

  1. Biography info-box: having an empty space awaiting the date of Dr Norman's demise is ghoulish. Is there a separate version of that template for people who are not yet dead? Should one be created?
    • I thought the same thing when I first implemented it. I couldn't find an alternative, but believe one should be created. --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 19:41 (UTC)
      • I agree. --nixie 30 June 2005 23:25 (UTC)
        • Consciously on my pending list, then, unless someone else does it / offers an alternative. –Hajor
        • Done. Swapped for a non-template version without date of death. And, when push came to shove, I remmed out the date of birth, too -- I thought it looked tidier like that: nice big pic with a solid title, but without biographical pretensions. If you don't agree, it's trivial to re-include. All three versions can be seen on my user sandbox. –Hajor 1 July 2005 13:13 (UTC)
  2. Footnotes: Some come before the punctuation[1]; others, after.[2] I like the footnotes-after-stops style better, but that's not important: consistency is. (Having the footnote calls in superscript also makes a right pig's ear of line spacing, but that's a defect of the footnote template, not this article. Still a shame, though.)
    • I think the rule for that is that if the source is for the whole paragraph, and appears at the end of the paragraph, then the footnote comes after the stop, but if the source is for a sentence in the paragraph, the footnote is before the stop. --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 19:41 (UTC)
      • I have to confess that's not a guideline I've ever heard. If you don't mind, I'll ask the typography mavens on the Manual of Style. –Hajor 30 June 2005 23:45 (UTC)
        • Finally, fwiw, some comments here. –Hajor 16:11, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
  3. Second Kashmir War -- found the redirect for that
  4. El Batán and Yaqui Valley -- I assume those are the names of the research stations / estates themselves, not of any surrounding towns or villages, so they're unlikely to get articles. De-link? Although someone might do a Río Yaqui / River Yaqui article at some point, the redirect wouldn't really be appropriate.
  5. Triticale: that was quite the buzzword at one point in the 1960s, and Borlaug speaks of it in his Nobel speech; his Encyclopaedia Brit. article also ties it in with his time at CIMMYT. No mention of it in this article however (and the Triticale article itself could use some TLC).
    • I had a couple sentences on it in there, but couldn't find any additional info besides from the Nobel bio (I didn't check his lecture), so I took it out since I didn't know where to place it in the timeframe (the Nobel bio said it's his current work, but how current is the bio?). If you can find additional info, please re-add the content. --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 19:41 (UTC)
      • I've always assumed that the Nobel bios are contemporary with the prizes -- hence, 35 yrs out of date. I noticed you added a link this p.m. Maybe I'll get inspired to do some reading round the subject, expand Triticale and tie in what I find with this article. Unless someone more expert in the field (nixie?) feels like beating me to it. –Hajor
        • I'm unsure how involved in triticale research Borlaug was, the Britannica bio which says He also created a wheat-rye hybrid known as triticale is almost certainly misleading if not incorrect. The CIMMYT was invloved in triticale research and Borlaug helped publicise their reseach [2] he mentions it in his Nobel lecture etc, but from my reading around the subject he does not seem to have done significant breeding with triticale himself.--nixie 1 July 2005 00:13 (UTC)
          • From my (scant) understanding of the case, the Britannica is incorrect on that one. What CIMMYT did in the 60s was produce more viable varieties of something going back to the previous century and, as you say, it doesn't appear Borlaug was directly involved (other than as "director of the center"). I'm happy just as long as triticale's linked somewhere. –Hajor 1 July 2005 12:55 (UTC)
  6. Billion lives, I've searched everywhere for the source of this number, the best I can come up (my hypothesis) is that is is a figure inferred from the population increases over the course of the Green Revolution, someone said it or wrote it and it has become like an urban legend. I've emailed the Heritage Foundation to see if they know the origin of the phrase. --nixie 30 June 2005 23:25 (UTC)
    • Check my talk page, where I've listed some links to the claim. The most reputable would be the interview with Borlaug, in which he eludes to the reasoning that you have stated. Whether or not it is true, we can certainly state that "his work is often credited with saving a billion lives", that is definitely true. Also, it isn't necessarily incorrect to state that "1 billion new people means 1 billion lives saved"; those people probably would've been born regardless, it's just that the state of their lives on arrival is much better than they would've been had the famines been allowed to continue, and it's doubtful they would've survived otherwise (as the many best-selling doomsayers have attested to). --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 23:34 (UTC)
      • For the sake of NPOV I have added an explanatory footnote, if the Heritage Foundation tells me something more concrete we can cite that.--nixie 30 June 2005 23:54 (UTC)
  7. Images, I've removed Image:CIMMYT maize.jpg (fair use claim not strong anyway); Image:Borlaug1983.jpg; Image:HarrarStakmanMexico56.jpg; Image:Carter-borlaug-shake.jpg; Image:Elvin Charles Stakman.jpg, reducing the total fair use images to 4. I'll email the heritage foundation again and see if they'll give us a picture of the house licenced under the GFDL.--nixie 1 July 2005 03:45 (UTC)
    • The maize image isn't originally from the source that I cited. That source got it from another source--the image isn't new. I think it really adds to the article. --brian0918™ 1 July 2005 04:05 (UTC)
      • Its a neat image, but if we're going to get criticised for image copyrights we need to address those concerns. You have to consider that image isn't discussed in the context of the article and has little to do with Borlaug (as far as I can tell) which makes the fair use claim tenuous, thats why I removed it. I've also retagged the remaining fair use images as {{CopyrightedFreeUseProvidedThat}} since that seems to be the intent of the University of Minnesota gallery.--nixie 1 July 2005 04:26 (UTC)
  8. Should he be referred to as Dr. Norman etc in the lead?
  9. Should we prune the list of publications to those that have ISBN's, for consideration of page length and since anything old (and that specialised) would be very difficult to get a hold of anyway?--nixie 6 July 2005 01:39 (UTC)
    • Page length should never be a problem, especially since it's just text. As for accessibility, anyone who has access to a library can get those publications through interlibrary loan. --brian0918™ 6 July 2005 01:45 (UTC)

Changes

Changes look good, I think the biotech stuff could be merged into the future of global farming section. There are parts where the article seems to chatty, like Despite these setbacks, Borlaug has found encouragement. , At the end of his undergraduate education, Borlaug attended a life-changing lecture titled, etc, I'll have a go imprvoving the tone later if noone else does.--nixie 7 July 2005 00:39 (UTC)


Source for the billion lives quote

I heard back from the World Food Prize Foundation:

This quote came from an article in The Atlanticonline in January of 1997. The actual quote was "The form of agriculture that Borlaug preaches may have preented a billion deaths." You may want to try this link www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jan/borlaug/borlaug.htm . It was "Forgotten Benefactor of Humanity" by Gregg Easterbrook. Hope this helps.

Jan Douglas World Food Prize Foundation

--nixie 00:11, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

  • I've added that content. Can you ask her if they have any free images (free for any use provided that credit is given) related to Borlaug that could be used in the article, or if she has any other trivia or facts that would be good in the article? --brian0918™ Ni! 03:43, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Great Job!

I'd like to congratulate the people who were involved in writing this article on the splendid job they have done. It is amazing how much it has improved since I last saw it. As an Indian I feel that my county has probably benefited the most due to Dr Norman Borlaug's work in promoting (and not just developing) HYV wheat. Thank you all!

Old speeches and presentations

The bottom of the article looked like a Borlaug web directory, I've moved everything pre 2000 here.--nixie 05:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)