Talk:Noel Pemberton Billing

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[edit] Homophobia cat

I'm removing the Category:Homophobia for two reasons. First, homophobia doesn't seem to define Billing and his notability in the same way as other people in that category, like Jerry Fallwell or Fred Phelps. And secondly, if homophobia is central to Billing, it needs to be discussed in the article. At the moment it's not even mentioned. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? Have you read the article? Of course it is mentioned. Homophobia is one of the two things he is now best known for. He's known essentially for his activities as an aviator/promotor of air power and for his activity as an anti-homosexual activist. There has been a great deal written about this, notably Hoare's book Oscar Wilde's Last Stand [1], Michael Kettle's Salome's Last Veil: The Libel Case of the Century (1977) and Jodie Medd's "The Cult of the Clitoris": Anatomy of a National Scandal. Paul B (talk) 16:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Terribly sorry - I honestly don't know how I missed that.

I still feel the article doesn't justify the category "Homophobia". The people listed in that cat are either known solely for their homophobia or are known very strongly for their homophobia. As it stands, only about a quarter of Billing's article is devoted to his view of homosexuality, with substantial parts being about his inventions and about his views on the war/aviation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see him matching up with Anita Bryant or Fred Phelps - he seems more like Strom Thurmond - someone with strongly homophobic views, but it's not all they were or were known for. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 20:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I really cannot understand your argument. The other categories included here are, for example, "Royal Navy personnel of World War I | English businesspeople | English aviators | Members of the United Kingdom Parliament for English constituencies". How much of the article is devoted to his activity as a member of the Royal Navy in WW1? How much is devoted to his aviation? How much to his business activity? In most cases it is about the same or less than the space devoted to his anti-homosexual campaigning. Should we delete all these categories because "it's not all he is or was known for"? In any case, the literal amount of space devoted to a subject in this article now should not determine whether a category is included, given that several whole books have been written on the subject. Length is this case depends on how much particular contributors want to devote to a topic. Categories are supposed to be there to help people to find relevant information. If you cut down the category to only a tiny number of very very obvious members, I would suggest that you undermine the whole point of a category. Paul B (talk) 08:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the difference is that "Homophobia" is such a wide topic, so members of that category should be strong ones. For instance, Billing is in the cat Category:Royal Navy personnel of World War I, but would you put him in Category:Royal Navy? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this individual is a very strong candidate for membership of the category. Adding, say, any politician who voted against equalising ages of consent (or some similar issue) would be pointless, but adding someone who initiated and pursued a campaign against homosexuality which involved some famous figures in LGTB history, and who epitomises the concept of homophobia is rather different! Paul B (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I think some sort of homophobia category is probably appropriate for Billing. Similar to Satyr's Navy categories comment though, I wonder if we need a subcat for homophobic people. As this is a broader question than just Billing, I have asked it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Homophobic people category. Aleta ^Sing 14:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Paul B, since I really know next to nothing about Billing, do you really feel he's the English equivalent to Fred Phelps or Anita Bryant? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 14:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course. In his day he was hugely significant. Obviously now he is largely unknown to most people, but that's just because he's historical. I doubt that Freddy P will very well remembered in a hundred years. Paul B (talk) 15:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I hope not! =D -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 20:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW, there's some discussion at the LGBT wikiproject about sub-catting "Category:Anti-LGBT right supporters" or something like that. In case you're interested - but don't feel you need to :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 20:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

There should be a better term than the wishy-washy "homophobic" to describe the pioneering anti-fag efforts of these brave people. Regardless, Billing's anti-fag crusade was still a minor effort when compared to the launching of Supermarine.

Little did I imaagine that my request for some sort of LGBT tag would lead to such prompt debate! At least he is now on our radars.... BrainyBabe (talk) 06:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

being an anti-homo was probably just a hobby or past-time for Billing. It wasn't his main thing in life. People aren't usually defined by their hobbies or the weekend causes they get involved in. User:DD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.129.40 (talk) 01:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] M'bret or M'prit

HOwever it is transliterated, what is it? BrainyBabe (talk) 06:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You mean you don't know!? It's Albanian for King. See King of Albania. Billing is referring to William, Prince of Albania, who was kicked out of Albania following a coup in 1914 and went to Germany to join the German army under an assumed name. I changed the spelling because Hoare's book uses that spelling. If in the original text it was really spelled M'Prit it should be changed back, but I can't at the moment find any evidence of that. Paul B (talk) 09:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Alas, my education is sorely lacking. I thought Albanian kings were zogs, as Egyptian ones were pharoahs. COuld you gloss it in the article please? BrainyBabe (talk) 12:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've linked it. Zog was the name of the guy who eventually replaced William, until he was overthrown too. Paul B (talk) 12:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)