Talk:Nine-ball

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cue sports, a project to improve Wikipedia's coverage of pool, carom billiards and other cue sports. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Contents 1 Rotation 2 Significant changes 3 Order 4 When can the nine ball be sunk? 5 Redundancy 6 Significant changes redux 7 Memories 8 Pro vs. colloquial rules and variations 9 Called shots 10 Strategy 11 Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion 12 WikiProject Cue sports 13 "Valuable 5 ball" variant? 14 "Great feats" 15 Push-out Clarification 16 Clarification request

[edit] Rotation

There's no mention of having to hit the balls in order, ie. you must strike the lowest number ball on the table. I thought that was one of the main rules.

--Prisonblues 10:02, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Significant changes

I made some significant changes to the article. I hope these are satisfactory. --GoHawks4 10:15, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order

We now have: "Although the order of the rest of the balls is in fact irrelevant, they are ordinarily arranged in numerical order from left to right as shown." If the order is indeed irrelevant, we might want to include an explanation. Aliter 23:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pocketing the nine ball and fouling doesn't lose the game immediately, so I removed that line from the article. (The nine ball is respotted, otherwise it's just like any other foul.)

[edit] When can the nine ball be sunk?

My impression was that the nine could only be sunk after all the others but the article doesn't seem to say that explicitly. Or can one sink the nine at any time as long as one has hit the lowest numbered ball on the table first? --Editdroid

The nine can be sunk at any time as long as you have hit the lowest numbered ball first. --Al 19:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

So the nine ball does not have to be called in any way on a legal combo shot or on the last shot of the game?? Meaning the nine could go in by accident as long as the first object ball hit is the lowest numbered ball on the table? Can any one clear this up for me? thepretenders22

Yes, you have stated the rule correctly. The nine ball can be made at any time in the game by pure luck and without having been called so long as no foul is committed on the shot (such as failing to contact the lowest numerical ball first). For some reason this rule causes great confusion; I am asked this at least once a month in my column. Fuhghettaboutit 01:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancy

"Like most billiards games, there are many variations on the rules of nine ball, and a specific ruleset is often decided before a game." This statement was re-inserted in the second paragraph by Superm---. It obviously refers to recreational games, not tournament or championship games. "The game may be played in social and recreational settings . . . subject to such rules as may be agreed upon beforehand" has already been stated in the first paragraph. This re-insertion is unnecessary. RogerK 01:55, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Significant changes redux

I made some significant changes to the article. I hope these are satisfactory. I am a professional pool player and write articles under the name "Pool_Teacher" in the pool/billiards category at allexperts.com. --fuhghettaboutit December 10, 2005

[edit] Memories

It appears that this article is being written by seasoned players, rather than researchers, 'cause there are no references listed, lol. I've played a lot of nine ball, mostly in pool halls in the 60s when I was a young man, and then always for money. It wasn't unusual for 4 or 5 of us to play on one table for hours, for a buck or two a head, and it was always call every shot, no push allowed. Sometimes some hot-shot would show up, and we'd play for $5 or $10 a head. Ah, the good old days. It was big money to me back in those days. Today my wife and I play occasionally at a local tavern, and I occasionally shock some egotist with a flash of talent, but it's gettin' tough; I wear tri-focals now, lol. Pleased to meet you, fuhg, and you too, woohooo --RogerK 03:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey Roger so you used to play ring games huh?, I was in the back playing Chicago! Actually cut my teeth on straight pool of course, but I really never was a huge nine ball fan. Course after straight pool died, I had to switch to playing nine ball. Guess we have to add some references to the article. Shouldn't be to difficult (hey, why don't you start?)

Added a coupla references which related to Nine Ball's beginnings. The games we played were Nine Ball, Harrigan, and Kill Pool. Don't remember much about Kill Pool, but Harrigan was by far my favorite. Up to seven players could play, and each was given, by the proprietor (who did not play and also served as the referee and settler of disputes), two pills randomly from the pill bottle, which was shaken before each delivery. Each pill was about 5/8" in diameter with a flat upon which was a number (from 1 to 15), and each player would return one of the pills to the proprietor (these would determine the order of play, lowest first), and retain the other pill which would be the player's object ball (he "owned" it). If the breaker pocketed his object ball on the break, the game was over and he won. If he sank another player's object ball on the break, the game was over and the owner of the pocketed ball won. Every player paid the winner. If any player, in the course of his turn, pocketed a ball that was owned by no one, he could continue shooting, but if he pocketed any owned ball it was an immediate win for its owner. Fast game; quick money. I used to keep my pill in my right ear, lol. Perfect fit. Ah, the good old days :)). --RogerK 03:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay try this brutal money game I used to play: called cribbage; each ball on the table has a partner that adds to 15 (but the fifteen ball of course). Say you make the 2 and 6 ball on the break, your only choices are the 13 and the 9 cause those partner with the two sunk balls (you can push out after the break). If you don't make any partner ball it gets spotted on the foot spot (and many times in the game you end up with a row of ball on the foot spot, which means that all of their partners are out on the table). Each cribbage (a pair) is worth a set number of dollars but for each pair you make in a row the money increases like this: first cribbage is a dollar, second cribbage is two dollars, third is three, so you make three in a row you get six dollars. The fifteen ball is the break ball, sort of like in straight pool, so you have to maneuver it to a break position. First one to a frozen amount of money wins, so the length of the match is determined by the amount of money you freeze up, and the amount you win is determined by how much you are ahead of your opponent because they keep whatever money they've won off you and you keep whatever money you've won from them. Between even players, it's sometimes a wash, but the great thing about the game is that there's so much incentive to bury your opponent cuase that's the only way you can make money. Lot's of fun but brutal. --Fuhghettaboutit 04:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pro vs. colloquial rules and variations

Roger, I liked most of the changes but here's what I changed and why: the article said that "each player" could push out only once, implying that each player got one push out per game (two total), this coulkd be easilt mispercieved, so I reworked that, The other main change is that you placed official after "came to dominate the sport (paraphrasing), which is then followed by that "the rule variation is what is followed by the offical rules maintained by the BCA. The point there was that push out rules dominate the way the game is played AND are what are played in official rules, which is true; most nine ball players play texas express rules even if they are not following all official rules, so this construction highlights that it dominates boith the way the games is played and official rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuhghettaboutit (talk • contribs)

Hope you don't mind me moving this section to this header :). Here in New Jersey, in social settings, I personally have never heard of "Texas Express" rules or variants. Not that that means much; I only play occasionally, and always socially. At any rate, I felt that, based on your knowledge, you meant that it dominated league and/or tournament play, and not social play; so I used the word "official". I'm beginning to feel that the readers might best be served if the rules were defined in two separate sections, one which deals with "official" play, such as league and tournament, and another which deals with "social and recreational" play, just to avoid confusion. Let me know what you think :) --RogerK 02:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Mind? I have no ownership pride over these articles. I just like to keep them factually correct. I don't think nine ball needs this; most players who are advanced enough to play nine ball play by rules that are not too different from professional rules. Most play with just pne push out only after the break. Now eight ball, that would be a great idea, since most players haven't a clue as to professional rules. Unfortunately I don't know how you could segragate the rules played by amateurs into its own secton since they can't agree on them! A bar on one side of the street may play by different rules than the bar on the other side. By the way, just wrote the article on the great Jean Balukas. Your input would be valued. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuhghettaboutit (talk • contribs)

[edit] Called shots

I'm sorry, but this article deals with more than just professional play, and called shots in 9 ball are, indeed, required in some settings. There is no reason to delete this section; it is not superfluous at all. Readers have the right to know what is required when 9 ball is played in that circumstance. --RogerK 05:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

These are not the rules of professional play They are the rules of nine ball--just like the rules of baseball are the rules of baseball, and the rules of [insert game] are the rules of [that game]. Would you have the encyclopedia article on nine ball give instructions for a variant of the game rarely played? I think I understand your concern but it's based on a misperception--you think that a large percentage of people don't play or attempt to play by "professional rules." This is incorrect. The majority of people who play nine ball, play by the rules of nine ball and not some call shot variant. This article should be about nine ball and not some other, similar game. Nine ball is not a call shot game--period. Fuhghettaboutit 15:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't like to make unilateral edits in the face of opposition, but I am an expert on this topic. However, I'll provide some corroboration.

As stated in the World Standardized Rules: 9-Ball:

5.1 OBJECT OF THE GAME Nine-Ball is played with nine object balls numbered one through nine and a cue ball. On each shot, the first ball the cue ball contacts must be the lowest numbered ball on the table, but the balls need not be pocketed in order. If a player pockets any ball on a legal shot, he remains at the table for another shot, and continues until missing, committing a foul, or winning the game by pocketing the 9-ball. After a miss, the incoming player must shoot from the position left by the previous player, but after any foul the incoming player may start with the cue ball anywhere on the table. Players are not required to call any shot. A match ends when one of the players has won the required number of games. (emphasis supplied)

As stated in the Texas Express Official 9-Ball Rules:

1.1: Object of the Game ...Numbered balls do not have to be pocketed in numerical order, provided the lowest numbered ball on the table is contacted first. There is no requirement that any shot or pocket be declared prior to shooting. Each player continues to play until he or she 1) fails to legally pocket a numbered ball, 2) fouls, or 3) wins the game. (emphasis supplied):

As stated in the Official Billiard Congress of America Rules(which simply link to WSR)

1.1: Object of the Game '...Players are not required to call any shot....

The same rules are cited in numerous other sources, often copying the text of one of these official repository of the rules of nine ball. See for example:On the Snap Rules, Triangle Billiards, The American CueSports Alliance and The University Poolplayers Association.

Moreover, and apropos of the apparent [incorrect] belief you are operating under that the majority of amateurs play call shot, the largest amateur pool league in the world, the The American Poolplayers Association (APA) follows BCA rules (as quoted above).

Fuhghettaboutit 01:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. You obviously don't play in taverns and billiard parlors. Those of you who are aligned with organizations may always play by the "official rules", but this article does not yet have a header entitled "Nine Ball rules", nor does the article need to be restricted to such a narrow perspective. Inclusion of information relating to called shots does not make the article "un-encyclopedic". The called game is not "rarely played" in social settings. I've played 9 ball for more than 40 years in these settings, and I assure you that in the great majority of those games, it was required to call the 9. To include information about called shots is to include an aspect of the game of 9 ball as it may be played by a cross-section of people who are not members of professional or amateur organizations. I understand that you are an expert; you make that fact quite obvious. And I know what the BCA rules are. The removal of this paragraph was either carried out or approved by you without so much as a comment on the discussion page. Have you been appointed as the official judge of what may or may not be stated in this article? By whose standard is this information not admissible in this article? --RogerK 02:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I would like to point out that I sometimes play nine ball nude with a garden rake as a cue, as do many people I know. Therefore I think this should be a part of an encyclopedia article about nine ball. --JoelBest 11:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

RogerK, if you can cite multiple independent reliable sources for the statement that "called shots in 9 ball are, indeed, required in some settings", then feel free to add some material about that to the article, so cited. To address your anecdotal insistence that you play called-shot nine-ball all the time recreationally, I can counter anecdotally that I've been playing pool religiously for over a decade, in New Mexico, Maryland, Virginia, Washington DC, Washington state, California, Ontario, and Ireland (I move a lot...), and I have never been asked to play called-shot in nine-ball, other than one time, by a pair of wanna-be hustlers in San Francisco, who were literally laughed out loud at by everyone within earshot and who I took for over $100, and another $40 when they switched to darts (about which they didn't know much either, apparently). >;-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strategy

Perhaps someone should include a section on strategy? 9-ball requires positional play, as well as running out or playing safe. Since it seems the people who take care of this article are "pros", you guys can work out the rest. 71.250.9.119 13:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This would have to be done carefully if at all, because of WP:NOT rules against giving advice or including guide/how-to style information. Some discussion of the nature of nine-ball strategy and how it differs from, say, eight-ball strategy is probably warranted, though. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion

Especially for nine-ball but also for eight-ball, one-pocket, and even snooker, etc., I firmly think we need to come to, and as editors enforce in article texts, a consensus on spelling conventions and implement it consistently throughout all of the cue sports Wikepedia articles. I advocate (and herein attempt to justify) a system of standardized spellings, based on 1) general grammar rules; 2) basic logic; and 3) disambiguation.

This is a draft submission to the active editor community of billiards-related articles on Wikipedia. It is intended to ultimately end up being something like "[[Wikipedia:[something:]Billiards/Spelling guidelines]]", or part of an official Wikipedia cue sports article-shepherding Project, likely it's first documentation output.

Anyway, please help me think this through. The point is not for me to become world famous™ for having finally codified billiards terms and united the entire English-speaking world in using them (hurrah). I simply want the articles here on pool and related games to be very consistent in application of some new consensus Wikipedia editing standards about spelling/phrasing of easily confusable billards terms that may be ambiguous to many readers in the absence of that standard.

Compare:

1. "While 9-ball is a 9-ball game, the 9-ball is the real target; pocket it in a 9-ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Huh?)
2. "While nine-ball is a nine ball game, the 9 ball is the real target; pocket it in a nine ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Oh, right!)

That's the super-simple "use case" I make for this proposed nomenclature. If you think that the differentiation didn't cut it please TELL ME, and say how you would improve it.

So, here's the article draft so far (please do not edit it directly! Post on its Discussion page instead; thanks.): User:SMcCandlish/Pool_terms

(PS: This intro text is repeated at the top of it.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Marking this topic resolved, because the page is now "live", at WP:CUESPELL, and has its own talk page. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Cue sports

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cue sports. Any comments, or better yet interested editors to participate? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Marking this topic "Resolved" since the project is live and has its own talk page now. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Valuable 5 ball" variant?

There's a passage that says that in non-tournament variants of the game, "the 5 ball may be considered of value". What is that about? And can it be sourced? I've never heard of this that I can recall. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole article needs better sourcing, but until such time as that is done, any statement that is questioned can be removed:-) For what it's worth, I have no idea about that either.--Fuhghettaboutit 13:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 02:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Great feats"

Reverted addition of a new section, entirely unsourced, but it might have potential if sourceable. The very fact that they are alleged great feats demands that they be sourced, and reliably at that. The section, entirely contributed here by 61.9.126.41 (talk · contribs) though some of these points have come up in some of the player bio articles (and flagged as needing sourcing there as well):

==Great Feats==
* At an exhibition, [[Earl Strickland]], and American pool specialist, ran 11 racks and earned a great prize of $1,000,000.

* Filipino veteran [[Jose Parica]] won a race-to-eleven match without mistakes. 

* [[Rodolfo Luat]] and [[Alex Pagulayan]], while competing in separate occasions, pocketed 6 balls in the break. Possibly, this is most balls ever pocketed when breaking in [[9-ball]].

— SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't added that section. I just fix spelling errors whenever I peruse "Recent Changes" on Wikipedia. I don't even like playing pool. :-) Minh T. Nguyen 05:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

My bad; it was 61.9.126.41 who provided the material. He/she is now credited appropriately above. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 09:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Note to self or any other editor: At least one of the six-balls-pocketed breaks is sourced now. If both are, this tidbit could be added back into the article. The others sound interesting as well, but w/o sources they shouldn't go in the article, per WP:ATT. I think the Strickland point may be as well. If this remains unresolved for a few days ping me on my talk page and I'll look into it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 09:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've pocketed six balls twice. Lots of people have. It's not a great feat at all. I don't remember the source, but I remember reading that "Hurricane" Tony Ellin pocketed eight balls on the break with witnesses present. Now that's a feat. As for Strickland, if I remember correctly, that incident was the lead story in both pool and billiard magazine and Billiards digest at the time. The text above is deceptive. The controversy surrounded the fact that the insurance company that was backing giving out the prize for running 11 racks or more refused to pay (and never did as far as I know) because a number of the racks were made by pocketing the 9 ball on the break and other were made by combinations during the game. It came down to whether those racks were considered part of the "run out" that counted toward 11 contiguous racks.--Fuhghettaboutit 13:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah so. This Strickland thing sounds like it just belongs in his article then. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 02:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Push-out Clarification

When a player calls a push-out, can the player touch any balls with the cue when he does so? What happens if he does?75.75.110.235 22:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The cue ball can touch any balls or no balls, and can be used to pocket balls including the nine. Any balls pocketed other than the nine stay down with no penalty to the pusher. If the nine ball is made, is is spotted to the foot spot also without any penalty to the pusher.--Fuhghettaboutit 22:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification request

Having read the rules section, and noted that "The object of the game is to pocket the 9 ball in a legal manner" I'm slightly baffled as to what the benefit is to the player of potting other balls. I'm familiar with the rules of snooker, where points are earned for every pot, but that seems not to be the case here. Is it just so that you "get another go", and can hopefully manoeuvre yourself into a better position for an attempt to pot the 9 ball (either directly or indirectly)? I feel the article would benefit from this being made clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.195.2 (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)