Talk:Niddah

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Contents

[edit] plagiarism?

There seems to be a fair amount of identical text between this article and http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/niddah.html I dont know which came first or which copied the other —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.153.4.250 (talk) 06:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reducing the links

I have radically reduced the amount of links. Some linked articles were off the topic (this is on Niddah, not on sexuality in Judaism). Others were multiple links to the same resource. I have linked to the main resource pages, effectively reducing duplicates.
Niddah probably needs no more than three links. Wikipedia is not a link repository. JFW | T@lk 10:38, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Views of Conservative Judaism

Great article. I have added the views of Conservative Judaism; since these are not accepted by Orthodoxy (and are obviously a change from how this practice has been understood for a long time) I tried to make it clear that this view was only found within parts of the Conservative movemment. RK

I have disputed the neutrality of this section as I feel that it uses a tone that suggests condemnation and may not be in the spirit of both Wikipedia's neutrality policy as well as Ahavas Yisrael.
Respectfully, Batshua 07:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree the material that was added to the end of this section is a clear violation of WP:SOAP, an editor's unsourced, strongly-worded, clearly partisan opinion, presented as fact. No factual information or other encyclopedic information provided. Am removing to talk page and it's listed below. --Shirahadasha 16:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Keeping the laws of purity promote acute awareness of sexuality and limit stagnation in relationships. However, they are also a challange for both man & woman alike to overcome basal urges. If one questions the authenticity of Judaism as a whole then compliance with these laws will appear difficult at best. As such, compliance with the laws of purity is viewed as a high degree of observence in all denominations of Jewish practice.
Conservative Judaism, a step(s) away from Torah faithfulness, does not enforce these laws communally but is attached enough to recognise them as being something Jewish and deeply rooted in Jewish heritage. Denominations of Judaism which adhere even less directly, if at all, to the Torah's teaching generally do not expect any adherence to these laws or practices nor focus on them.
When viewed from Torah law, births resulting from non-practicing Jews are considered "Ben or Bat Niddah". I.e. the child of a relationship where the parents where not practicing the laws of purity, and it is therefore assumed to be conceived at a time where conjugal realtions are prohibited. The child may have certain legal restrictions and may have a character that shows signs of an uncouth or boorish inclination.
Adherence to these laws are viewed as the best present one can bestow upon the unborn child - giving them the best most 'kosher' start in life, at conception.

[edit] Jews and bedroom jokes

I made one deletion: "Jews do not make jokes about private bedroom matters." Oh yes they do. Not only do non-Orthodox Jews sometimes make jokes, but so do many Orthodox Jews I have known, including Modern Orthodox and Lubavitch. And a (stunningly beautiful) non-Jewish ex-girlfriend of mine worked for a couple of summers in the Satmar Hasidic community, and was privy to (and sometimes the subject of) many such jokes. (For some reason, since she was non-Jewish, and pretty, the men didn't seem to think that regular laws of tzniout applied.) Maybe we can say that Jewish law codes hold that one does not make jokes about private bedroom matters; that would be more accurate. RK

Anectodal and suspect evidence is not a basis for editing a Wikipedia article.38.117.213.19 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 16:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Organisation

Currently all the sections are the same level, even some with similar subject matter aren't grouped. I won't be hurt by any changes, just stubbing-out a grouping to get it started. —  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>    

On the whole, I personally try to avoid level 4 headers. Good work, though. JFW | T@lk 21:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spirituality?

"As society has rediscovered the importance of spirituality," Huh?? Cite some examples of society's rediscoverance of spirituality. I see no evidence of it here...perhaps you are living in another society... Or did you mean Jewish society? I am not qualified to comment on that, but I would assume the spirituality of the Jewish community is not that different from the community of the U.S. (or any other nation) as a whole.

It is indeed a rather bold speculation. JFW | T@lk 08:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Could the above anonymous user please sign his comments with the four ~~~~ tildes. IZAK 10:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Textual sources

subject of medieval debate was innacurate and deleted. There are several debates and Im not sure which the author was refering to. thus did not correct.

[edit] At the wedding?

I suppose as a purely practical matter a woman can't be niddah on her wedding day and night. But how is she to know far enough ahead of time to plan the wedding whether or not she's going to be niddah on a particular day? —Angr 16:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Avi: There is actually nothing wrong with a woman being a niddah at her wedding. It can be uncomfortable for her but it is not forbidden. In some Orthodox circles engagements are very short (weeks, not months or years) so the timeframe is not necessarily a problem. Other women may choose to use contraceptives to control their menstrual cycles.

Happens all the time. Orthodox women try to take their cycles into account in planning their wedding day, but irregularities happen. A women who marries while a niddah can't consummate the marriage until after niddah ends and she immerses. Not the best situation, but part of being an Orthodox Jew. Best, --Shirahadasha 05:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
But if she's niddah, she can't even touch her husband, right? How can they hold hands during the ceremony, or kiss at the end, or dance at the reception? (I don't know if any of those are customary at Orthodox weddings anyway, but if they are...) —Angr 05:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Due to tzniut, at least some Orthodox couples refrain from even the mildest PDA anyhow, so it's not a "problem" from that standpoint. I've definitely seen Jewish weddings where the bride and groom don't kiss, as well as ones where they do, I'm not sure that there's a "standard" other than the levels of modesty demanded by the couple's particular community. -- Batshua 07:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chupas Niddah versus the pill

I'm surpised that no-one here has mentioned that when a Jewish bride is a Niddah at her wedding the entire ceremony is called a "Chupat Niddah" (it's not a desirable scenario, and is generally avoided, because the bride and groom do not go home together after their wedding, a rather unfortunate outcome for both) and that therefore many Orthodox women who are engaged to be married go to a doctor and receive a precsription for a dosage of a safe oral contraceptive pill that stops their menstrual period for a month or two during which time the actual marriage is scheduled to be held. They stop taking the pill a few days after the wedding night when, in most cases, the bride becomes a Niddah due to losing her virginity after her hymen is broken and dam betulim ("hymenal" bleeding) ensues (in the majority of cases, first-time Orthodox brides are assumed to be virgins.) The percentage of women who do this in the Haredi community is quite high and it is ok'd by most Haredi rabbis. This is nothing new, it's been practiced since the pill was introduced on a mass commercial scale in the 1960s, and was shown to have very few side-effects, especially if taken for a very short duration of a few months. IZAK 09:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Hmm, looks like this can go into the article now... IZAK 09:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Wait wait wait. Who does this? A person needs a heter to use birth control, and it requires serious risk of death, blindness or insanity. I've never heard of this in my life. The young girl plans her wedding like so. She calculates her menstration the same way a married woman does for nddah purposes, by keeping track of her expected onset over the course of a couple or so months. (AMong Chasidim this is far easier because they typically have seperated engagements of 1 yr; the Litvishe Maaseh of getting married after two months of contact makes it harder, but doable.) She looks for the days when she will be tahor and calculates her wedding day by when she will be tahor. Also, the bride and groom do go home together, they just take litte relatives with them. Like a niece and nephew. These relatives stay with the spouse of the same gender, and both spouses sleep in seperate rooms. Shia1 13:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] old comments merged from Talk:Jewish laws of family purity

[edit] Content from article

nb: meta-commentary like this always belongs on the talk page. I'm redirecting the article to Niddah, per the merge tag. -- phoebe/(talk) 01:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Stub. Here's the scope: right now, the concept of tahara (purity) goes to mikveh. the concept of family purity goes to Niddah (the article focuses on menstruation laws, though there are many applicablities to family life and marriage that are left out. Here is a good book: [1]). The concept of Tzeniut (modest behavior) has its own page, as does Yichud (prohibitions of secluding oneself with a stranger), and Negiah (guidelines for physical contact). All of these are touched upon in the Jewish view of marriage. This article should be an overview, as it relates to family alone. Yes, Jewish laws of family purity is tied to Mikveh, and Menses, and Marriage, but that's not all. Threats to shalom bayit. Birth Control. Dishonest spouses. There is a gamut of things that have not been put in one place.

[edit] See also

I respectfully disagree. "Family purity" is a quasi-translation of the hebrew Tahara, ritual purity, and has a well-established meaning of those aspects of ritual purity that apply within families. Because of this well-established meaning, there was a proposal in Conservative Judaism (described in the Niddah article) to stop using the term "family purity" and substitute "family holiness". If you have reliable sources that some people use the term differently, the article can mention this. An analogous case is the Kashrut articles, where the "Eco-Kosher" view that the term "Kashrut" shouldn't be limited to dietary laws but should encompass views of ethical relations with the environment as a whole was found notable enough to warrant a brief mention. Perhaps this may also be so regarding the view of Taharat HaMishpacha you espouse. Currently, however, no sources have been produced to confirm it, and the Conservative proposal for a conscious change of terminology tends to confirm the opposite. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rabbinic literature

There are a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies in this area of the article. For example running water is never required. This seems to be a common misconception. I will slowly fix the errors.Benignuman 04:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

It's worth noting that although outside the topic of Rabbinic Judaism, Falashan Jews required immersion in running water among other special niddah practices, although I understand that upon immigration to Israel their practices have become more assimilated. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Priestly code?

What with documentery hypothesis stuff. Most people never heard of the priestly code and the holiness code (didn't it used to be just the P document?) and it is irelevant to the subject of niddah. Why not just discuss leviticus where all this is written. Why is this viewed as two codes anyway one is the description of the reality of niddah and one is the laws and punishments related to it. It sounds like just two chapters of the same code?Benignuman 19:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

A couple of Wikipedia editors seem to have a fetish of taking every reference to the Bible and turning it into a reference to one of the documents in the Documentary hypothesis. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring article

The current article is written in classical historic fashion of "Bible", "Rabbinic literature" and "Modern Judaism". The result is that the Orthodox laws of Niddah are more or less arbitrarily divided between the latter two categories. There are still traces of a binary divide between "Orthodox Judaism" and "Progressive Judaism": in this area Conservative Judaism is distinctly different from both in theory (although less so in practice).

My suggestion would be to restructure the article by beginning with the Biblical rules, outline the role of the Talmud and classical commentaries, then outline the classical rules in one place, then discuss contemporary Orthodox practices, then outline the Conservative movement's views, then Reform etc. Will await comments before any attempt at rearrangement. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)