Talk:Nickel-metal hydride battery

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[edit] Future of Rechargable batteries

/Batteries can be very helpful. It can also make electromagnets There is Li-on which doesnt have Memory effect but those cant come in the standard AA/AAA format [the battery from my Camera doesnt work in my portable DVD player or laptop, more specific, man Henry Ford invented mass producution making things more universal and we switch back]. Will all electronic use Lion that wont be avaliable in a couple years? Will AA and AAA batteries be around for a million years?

[edit] Requested move

The current article is about the nickel metal hydride battery, but the name only specifies what it is made out of. Other articles include "battery", such as lithium battery and lead-acid battery. -- Kjkolb 07:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support - seems a very obvious move. Rd232 talk 11:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Support - makes it more obvious what the article is about. Lee J Haywood 12:52, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

In the specifications, we have a couloumic charging efficiency of only 66%. It is referenced to a commercial site that sells batteries and chargers and while it seems informative, I would prefer better explanations. Other commercial sites actually put their chargers at much higher efficiencies, though I do not know that it is the couloumic charge efficiency. They just call it the charging efficiency. I found a place that might actually solve my question but I'm limited in my ability to get access. It is from an IEEE article Sept 2006 on NiMH and NiCd charging characteristics. Although references to 66% abound on the web, they basically go back to the same commercial site.

74.98.108.37 21:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

In the battery specifications table, it says that the energy/weight ratio can go up to 200 Wh/kg. I have been unable to find a NiMH battery with that kind of ratio. That would make the NiMH battery the same as the Lithium Ion battery!!! Could someone please give the true maximum with a reference. Thanks. (User:66.68.107.60)

How do you achieve a long time storage charge of around 40%?

What is the metal (besides nickel) in NiMH? What are the electrodes made of? -- Kaihsu 09:18, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)

I feel that the qestion of what the Metal is, is so freaking important that it should be in the article until answered. Hackwrench, Robert Claypool (User:66.213.15.15)

See the talk below this. The other "metal" is hydrogen, stored as a metal hydride. And if the article didn't make this clear to you, we should fix the article.
Atlant 14:37, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Earlier, Robert posted the following question in the article (which I've now excised to here):

Nobody seems able to explain what the "metal" in Nickel Metal Hydride is.

This resource claims that a variety of intermetallic compounds are used as the "metal" in the metal-hydride negative electrode and that the particular alloy is chosen for low equilibrium pressure, resistance to corrosion, mechanical stability, reversibility, hydrogen storage ability, and other factors. I suspect that any given battery design treats the electrode choice as a trade secret although it's obviously not a well-guarded one.

The upshot is that the particular metal isn't very important; hydrogen is the actual participant in the reaction.

I guess someone can edit the main article to include this data if they wish.

Atlant 17:44, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sure, sounds fun.--Joel 23:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Result

moved. WhiteNight T | @ | C 00:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] is there really a memory effect in NiCds

i have read that there is no memory effect in modern NiCds (there is a very little, almost undetectable memory effect in non-modern NiCds). when people who know nothing about batteries refer to the memory effect they are almost always refering to voltage depression. i think the part that they (Ni-mh batteries) don't suffer from the memory effect should be edited to say voltage depression instead of memory effect. ni-mh batteries, like NiCds do suffer from voltage depression if improperly charged (though significantly less than ni-cds) but there is no true memory effect in almost any modern battery. Another meaning of memory effect is: A battery rated 1000 miliamp hours will after several charge cyles of 100 milliamp separated by discharge cyles of 70 milliamps will now have a capacity of perhaps 200 miliamp hours meaning the battery remembers that you only want 70 milliamp hours and forgets that it was a 1000 milliamp battery. Lead acid batteries have very little memory, but nickle-cadmium batteries and some other types are best discharged until their terminal voltage drops to about 90% of the rated voltage before recharging. The 90% rule varies with number of cells in series and manufacture. Neil

I am just one person here, but here is my past 7-8 years experience of using NiMH. NiMH are very good at the start of their life cycle. They are Exceptional for powering medium drain devices, low drain devices seem to run just fine on NiMH for up to 2 years between recharging eg: remotes, 8 years ago I bought 12 AA NiMH batteries for use in GBA's and digital cameras, after 4 years the digital camera I was running would no longer run off NiMH unless they were charged the same day as used, and only for minutes of shooting/being turned on, to date the GBAs can run for hours, but not as many as when new, perhaps as many as 2 hours less run time 8 years later, and since the new Gameboys all have Li-ion, i have loads of old NiMH powering all my remotes, and enough to cycle charged with discharged quickly. Modern cameras might run longer, or perhaps modern NiMH are better, the NiMH batteries i got 8 years ago are rated as 1600, today i see as high as 2400 in stores, and the article references as high as 2500. Still, the batteries were used most often in gameboys, my dad also bought NiMH for his digital camera, and only used them with it, i don't know what they were rated as, but after 3-4 years he switched to alkaline batteries, and then finally bought a Li-ion powered camera. after a few years he was getting less battery life from NiMH than from alkaline batteries. Basically, in my experience, Ni-MH loose the ability to run high drain devices after 3-4 years, it happens no matter the make or rating, they just stop working in high drain devices, perhaps storing them in a freezer can offset this problem, but i wouldn't know, but i've seen websites that recommend freezing NiMH as long as you can thaw them without getting them humid prior to use. I know this from only 2 people really using NiMH batteries 'in real life' and i have no idea why the batteries stop running high drain devices, but they do. my dad might have gotten cheapo 1600 or 1800 NiMH too, so perhaps the 2400 devices don't have the same problem with digital cameras, or perhaps i had problems with reverse charging, but i don't know. Still, I've only had 2 NiMH batteries go completely bad in 8 years, (one in the charger, one while on a shelf) but everyone I've known who've used them in digital cameras loathed them, because the cameras needed new NiMH every 3 years. Kesuki (talk) 00:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Capacity in Coulombs

Why is 1100 mAh and a 2500 mAh batteries 4C and 9C? Shouldn't they be 4kC and 9kC (1,1A * 60s*60s , and 2,5A * 60s*60s)?

Your analysis sounds correct to me. But if you edit the article, you may want to make sure that the two different uses of "C" are clearly distinguished. Right now, there's the use of "C" as "charge/discharge rate of the cell" (in the sense of "Charge at 1/10 C") and right near it, is "C" as Coulombs.
Atlant 13:08, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
They should be distinguished in part by the C for the quantity being always italic and the C for the unit of measure coulomb being always upright. Of course, the use of "20C" for temperature is also in need of changing; I'll fix that. Gene Nygaard 12:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In-Cell Charge Control (I-C3)

Does anyone have any info on this system? The batteries using this technology apparently has some kind of internal pressure sensor, allowing them to be charged in 15 minutes. I've searched around abit, but haven't found any detailed technical info. --GalFisk 20:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

A Google search shows that IC3 is/was patent pending by Rayovac. Maybe you could search out the patents. Efficacy 18:52, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The technology behind I-C3 appears to be an internal pressure sensor. Presumably the sensor is measuring the pressure buildup due to gas formation. When the pressure is getting dangerous, the charger slows down, giving the battery a chance to deal with the gas, and then it reverts back to high speed charging. To eliminate the heat problem the charger uses a large high-speed fan. Even so, at the end of charging those damn batteries are just about too hot to handle. I really do like the system overall. The batteries work great. 71.0.197.147 19:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I started the article on I-C3 with some information form the patent, and linked it from this article. --GalFisk 09:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stanley Ovshinsky

I've heard his claim that Stanley Ovshinsky invented nimh batteries, and there is some documentation of that (the wikipedia article on him desperately needs expanding.) I realize the true story may be more complex, but if he did invent them shouldn't it be mentioned here?

PS: His post is found under Stanford R. Ovshinsky, other forms of his name is Stan, Stanley, and Stanislav.

Invention of the NiMeHx battery technology: Please see the article below in "History ....". The invention and pioneering work goes back to 1964 at the Battelle Geneva Research Center.

[edit] Revertion justification

I reverted the image change. Copyrighted diagrams are just that and should not be used here when a free image is available. Of course anyone is free to use the information in that diagram and create a new and free diagram. Zeimusu | Talk page 13:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chemistry

Hi, does anyone know the chemical reactions (half-equations) that take place in a NiMH battery? If so, can it be added to the article? Neonumbers 07:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Electrical characteristics

There's no mention of the cell voltage under various conditions. It would appear, for example, that freshly charged and unloaded, a 1.2V cell will give nearer 1.4V. That's a notable difference from NiCad. --82.69.188.246 23:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Open-circuit (no-load) voltages don't mean much, though. As soon as you put a load on the cell, it goes back down to about 1.2 volts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.66.193 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Initial Charge Time

I've heard a number of places that one should initially charge a NiMH battery for a far longer period than on subsequent charging. Is this the case and, if so, then why?

No, just let your automatic charger charge it as per usual; it knows best.
Atlant 15:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Uh, YES, this is called Pack forming and is a requirement in order to get the most out of NiMH battery packs if they will be "fast" charged. Failure to do so will result in having diminished capacity. The process involves charging the pack at charge rate of C/10 for a specific length of time, something like 20hours for a 2000mAh pack (at a rate of 200mA).
There is a ton of expert knowledge about batteries for (Radio Control applications) at [RC Battery Clinic]. This guy has years of experience in the field of batteries. - Gdavidp1 23:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Opinions obviously vary. ;-)
Atlant 00:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temperature effects

NiMH are known to stop functioning below -10 degrees centigrade/fahrenheit --any confirmed views on this?

[edit] Patent ownership

Shouldn't the article say that the patents to NiMH technology are currently owned by Texaco/Chevron? Perhaps, but patents don't mean much any more. According to another reasonably credible wiki article, Panasonic will build a nickle metal hydride 300 volt battery to supply up to 200,000 watts to the two 100 kilowatt electric motors in a big Chevy truck which you can buy in the fall of 2007 The Wikipedia link has lots of details, most of which seem probable. I'm disapointed that cheap lead acid batteries likely will not be used, as the replacement cost of a high tech battery is too costly to risk letting the average driver plug it in. It looks like the system will be so complex that compentent mechanics will be unavailable when repairs are needed. A big Chevy truck instead of a Yukon will likely be the only hybred available from Chevy this year, possibly because the safety of the high tech battery will still be unknown by Oct 2007. The battery is less hazardous to the pasengers under the truck bed instead of behind the third bench. Neil —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.107.85.40 (talk • contribs) .

Patent encumbrance of NiMH batteries
In 1994, General Motors acquired a controlling interest in Ovonics's battery development and manufacturing, including patents and trade secrets controlling the manufacturing of large nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries. In 2001, Texaco purchased GM's share in GM Ovonics. A few months later, Chevron acquired Texaco. In 2003, Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems was changed to Cobasys, a 50/50 joint venture between Chevron and Energy Conversion Devices (ECD) Ovonics.[72] It has been argued that large-format NiMH batteries were commercially viable and ready for mass production, but that Chevron and other oil-related interests suppressed the technology to forestall the introduction of plug-in hybrids.[73] Plug-in hybrid

(It is kind of pathetic that the article currently has so little history info. And it is also sad to have nothing about the matter of usage of big NiMH batteries in cars possibly being suppressed by big corporations, as discussed in the Plug-in Hybrid article.)-69.87.200.161 17:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Advertisement

This looks like an advertisement to me: "A new nickel metal hydride battery on the consumer market made by Sanyo, called eneloop, limits the self-discharge problem and retains energy by means of "superlattice alloy". Eneloop batteries retain 90% of their charge after six months, 85% after a year and 70% after two years. [1] They are estimated to last 1,000 cycles and have four times as much energy capacity as alkaline batteries."

Content was added by: 213.232.127.35 WolfKeeper 09:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't necessarily seem inappropriate though; if the claims are true, it would probably be notable.WolfKeeper 09:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History and other information

"NiMH battery technology was developed at the end of the 1980's and commercialised first by the Matsushita Company"

Moved from main page:

This is not true: NiMeHx battery technology was invented and in the pioneering stage developed already 1964 at the Battelle Geneva Research Center, Electrochemistry Division. Patent filed in Switzerland: 2.05.1967, equiv. filed on 24.04.1970 in US 3,669,745 (granted 13.06.1972. Inventor: Dr.-Ing. Klaus D. Beccu (Technical University Berlin). Further patents on Ti-Ni hydride alloy phases: US 3,824,131 (July 16, 1974)and in many other countries. The work was sponsored from early 1970 for over 14 years by the German automobile company Daimler-Benz that obtained all the patent rights. Through the many publications including the patents and scientific conferences this innovative energy storage system was known worldwide and attracted many companies to start research for further improvment of the alloy composition and metallurgical structure. The most successful company in this respect was Energy Conversion Devices (ECD) with its battery company Ovonics. Stan Ovshinsky, the owner of the company, and his team introduced a new microstructure concept and new metal alloys to further improve the specific electrode capacity, performance and lifetime. Their technology was licensed to a large number of battery companies worldwide including Matsushita. (contribution by Dr. K.D. Beccu, Geneva) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.17.66.42 (talk) 17:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Having worked at Energy Conversion Devices and Ovonic Battery Company, I'm aware that they did not invent the underlying technology, but rather developed, and hold many patents on, various active materials. The technology goes back to Edison, with the metal hydride electrode development having been developed in the fifties or sixties. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I'm familiar enough with the history of the technology to do an accurate and well-sourced rewrite. How can we update the History section to be accurate? 70.90.142.202 12:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The Battelle patents (developed for the German automotive company Daimler-Benz) filed in Switzerland, Germany, US and other countries from 1967 were very seriously examined in those countries and we had to go through the whole procedure in Germany and US with prior art citations raised especially by the German battery company VARTA. However, it was confirmed that VARTA's work had dealt only with the electrocatalytic effect of metalhydrides with superficially adsorbed hydrogen - not for interstitial hydrogen storage in big volumes. Thermal Hydrogen absorption /desorption effects on certain metals were earlier observed even before Edison but the problem is the electrochemical reversibility which we solved through Ti2Ni/TiNi alloy compositions. Conclusion: there is a significant difference between hydrogen adsorption and storage. - No doubt (as I said above), Ovonic has significantly improved the alloy composition and structure (disordered microcrystalline) and brought the system to commercialisation. Since I am a consultant to ECD/Ovonics I have several times discussed this subject with Stan Ovshinsky, Mike Fetcenko and Marv Siskind never Battelle's pioneering work and intellectual authorship was contested. Klaus D. Beccu / Battelle Geneva Research Center. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KDB196 (talk • contribs) 14:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maintenance and reforming

"Long-term maintenance charge of NiMH batteries needs to be by low duty cycle pulses of high current rather than continuous low current in order to preserve battery health."

"Brand new batteries, or batteries which have been unused for some time, need "reforming" to reach their full capacity. For this reason new batteries may need several charge/discharge cycles before they operate to their advertised capacity."

These are important, and perhaps dubious claims. The should be backed up with details and references.-69.87.204.120 14:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The charging voltage is 1.4-1.6 V/cell.[1] Duracell recommends "a maintenance charge of indefinite duration at C/300 rate". A fully charged cell measures 1.35-1.4 V (unloaded), and supplies a nominal average 1.2V during discharge, down to about 1.0V (further discharge may cause permanent damage). Voltage Depression ("Memory Effect") from repeated partial discharge can occur, but is reversible through charge cycling. [2] -69.87.204.120 15:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maximum capacity = 7000mAh???

The second paragraph states that the capacity of AA batteries can be as high as 7000mAh. I find that very hard to believe. The highest I recall having seen is 2500 mAh. Could someone in the industry please address this if required? Thanks. Xarqi 08:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Low Self Discharge

I want to remove the section on "hybrids" and how they are used in marking these new cells. Only Rayovac is using the name "Hybrid" in marketing these cells, and only variant being "Hybrio" by Uniross. The paragraph takes issue with these marketing terms, and I agree that the marketing is hype, but I don't think it has to be discussed as a topic. Wikipedia is not for debunking marketing hype. Redfish2 14:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cold Fusion Tangent?

In my opinion the section "Security and Danger" needs a major re-write, focusing on the safety of using the batteries, not on unrelated hydrides.Oganocali 22:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Very old threads here

What about archiving threads in this discussion that have been inactive for, lets say, a year? Please review the threads and you'll agree with me that this has become somewhat messy, with obsolete threads. This can be automatically done by MiszaBot, but I need consensus here. --Agent Fog 16:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I cannot agree -- the total page is not that long so far, and it is more convenient to have the entire history here in one place. Otherwise, people are more likely to just repeat the same subjects, unaware... -69.87.204.176 22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Test results for LSD types

CandlePower Forums seems like the best source of detailed technical discussions, for low self-discharge NiMH batteries.

Perhaps "standard" NiMH will die out and the LSD types will take over the market. Since the AA and AAA are the only sizes of LSD currently made -- to what extent are C and D sizes actually available of any type of NiMH? -69.87.204.16 13:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

SIZES

all-battery.com sells C 5000 mAh, D 10000mAh, 9V 250mAh, tabbed, and odder sizes: [3] -69.87.199.6 (talk) 18:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems that "most" C and D NiMH batteries are "fake" -- AA cores in a dummy shell. thomas-distributing.com is mentioned as a source of "real" C and D sizes. C and D sleeves are available for intentionally using AA batteries this way. Checking the rated capacity would be the way to know -- a rating around 2500 mAh means fake. C should rate 5000-ish, D 10000 or more. -69.87.202.109 (talk) 21:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charge/discharge efficiency

The "new" Duracell one-year LSD pre-charged 2000mA AA now carried at CVS in New England states on the package that a standard charge is 200mA for 16 hours -- a pretty poor charge/discharge efficiency. The article states in the infobox "Charge/discharge efficiency 66%". There should be more about this aspect in the article, what the range is for NiMH batteries under what conditions, and how this compares to other rechargeables. -69.87.199.159 18:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patents

I added a section: Patent Encumberance of NiMH batteries, copied from Wikipedia page about electric cars. I thought this was most relevant to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adinov (talk • contribs) 08:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Full charge / over-charge

The article, and particularly the accompanying graph, are sadly vague about the details around being fully charged. No specific sources of such details are provided. And the referenced article about overcharging is very general.

As the battery is charged, at a constant current, the voltage rises. As the state of "fully charged" is approached, the voltage rises faster (more so than the graph shows). But as the state of full charge is then eventually reached and passed, into the overcharge zone, somewhere in there the voltage actually peaks and starts to go back down. This is odd behavior -- apparently not always terribly damaging. It would be good if the article would describe this zone in detail. In particular, what exactly is the chemistry doing, why does the voltage go down, and why is this not terrible?

Here are some specifics about full charge. In general, the charging voltage is (very) approximately 1.5V. Then, the peak voltage reached around full charge is about 1.5 to 1.7V, depending on the rate of charge and the temperature of the battery. Immediately after being charged, a fully charged NiMH battery measures about 1.44 to 1.45V during the first minute, open circuit. By about an hour later, it measures about 1.41V.

There may also be something strange about the temperature at the end of charging, perhaps connected to the voltage peaking. Using a slow dumb 50mA charger and old 1600mAh RS AA batteries, there is never a large increase in temperature, over ambient. During the early part of charging, there seems to be no perceptible increase. Some time around the completion-peak, the batteries (and charger) do warm enough to feel. But later, the steady-state over-charge condition seems to be not as warm. Why? How? -69.87.200.50 (talk) 03:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nimmer?

Regarding the anonymous edit to the first sentence on January 11th, does anyone actually pronounce NiMH as "Nimmer"? I can't help but think someone just made this up, as I've never heard them pronounced that way. A quick search on the net didn't turn up anyone else mentioning that pronounciation either. At the very least, they didn't provide a source, and I'm thinking they just fabricated it entirely.\

Cryoburner (talk) 20:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Between my experiences in amateur radio and IT I have NEVER heard anyone pronounce NiMH as "nimmer" but rather ALWAYS as "nimm". I MOVE for the deletion of this pronunciation statement, and replacement with the "nimm" unless a dictionary-level source can be provided.Jo7hs2 (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought it might make sense in British English, a non-rhotic pronunciation, but I’ve never heard of that, either. (Admittedly, neither have I heard nimm.) Google search shows nothing meaningful not copied from Wikipedia. I’m killing that shit accordingly. —Wiki Wikardo 20:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion of patent restrictions on NiMH batteries is the stuff of very, very bad conspiracy theorists. It's routine for manufacturers of any product to refuse small orders, as they can seldom recover their line startup costs. The theory that evil Chevron is restricting access deserves a single sentence at best, and in a properly formed article would not even be mentioned. The presence of two lengthy paragraphs discussing the possibility without a single word of rebuttal compromises the objectivity of the entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil Weingart (talk • contribs) 12:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)