Talk:Nero Wolfe supporting characters

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MV!

Overall, nicely done. Suggest however that you limit yourself somewhat. Telling when characters die is unfair to a reader. Not all the Wolfe books are easily found. Some are out of print.

Personally, I don't care that you describe a death of a minor castmember of a book I'm just now reading.

But I didn't want to know about Marko beforehand; I haven't read that book yet. He isn't minor.

BTW, go check out Steven Brust's LiveJournal for 9-June-06 [link on Wiki]. You may be amused.

- Chica

Contents

[edit] Anderson and Archer

There has been confusion on this page, I see, dating back to its earliest versions. In Fer-de-Lance the Westchester DA was Fletcher M. Anderson (chapter 3). In subsequent books (such as The Second Confession), it is Cleveland Archer. I don't know when the voters of Westchester County saw fit to replace Mr. Anderson with Mr. Archer, but because of the different names, and to forestall further confusion, I have deleted this article's reference to Fer-de-Lance, as well as the note concerning the bet with Anderson. TurnerHodges 22:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

There are no links from the main Nero Wolfe page to this page, or vice versa. Should there be? Much (but not all) of the content on this page is repeated on the main page. Some isn't (there is a list of 'associates' which omits Cramer and Stebbins, and other law & order folks...). I would think that either this info should be included on the main page, OR the links between these two pages should be strengthened.

[edit] Integrating content into main Nero Wolfe article

I've begun integrating text from this article into sections of the Nero Wolfe article. I believe that a separate "supporting characters" article may no longer be needed. — WFinch (talk) 04:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Changed my mind. — WFinch (talk) 03:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hombert Hombert

An earlier version of the Hombert discussion mentioned, I believe via footnote, that in The Silent Speaker Wolfe has a chance to humiliate Hombert and help Cramer in the process. I think that the editor might have been confused: there's a scene in And Be a Villain in which Wolfe has an opportunity to humiliate Deputy Police Commissioner O'Hara. At any rate, I find nothing in The Silent Speaker to suggest that Wolfe was in a position to humiliate Hombert, and I've removed the reference. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me. TurnerHodges (talk) 06:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirecting

I think I have made my first successful redirect, bringing the Lily Rowan article here. If I didn't foul up too many things, I'll do the same (in time) with the individual articles for the other Nero Wolfe supporting characters, since we're consolidating all the information here. Athaenara, please pardon my removing the internal link you placed here today. — WFinch (talk) 01:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


Does anyone have any thoughts about placement of the categories that are present on the individual articles? Lily Rowan was the easy test case for a redirect, since the only category present on her article was "Nero Wolfe characters." Arnold Zeck's article, however, also has the category "Fictional criminals." Inspector Cramer and Purley have the category "Fictional police officers."

Maybe it's not such a problem, after all, because that's it. If these two categories don't make the leap to the Nero Wolfe supporting characters article, you'll understand. Add them if you feel it's a good idea. — WFinch (talk) 01:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


Blathering on, it's all done. There are now only three articles in the category Nero Wolfe characters: Nero Wolfe, Archie Goodwin (fictional detective), and Nero Wolfe supporting characters. I see now that this article has as a second category, "Lists of television characters," which I feel inclined to remove. — WFinch (talk) 04:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two Questions, re:the Purley and Cramer Descriptions

I can't tell who contributed these curiosities, or when, because the reorganization has of necessity wreaked havoc on the History. Citations and/or opinions, anybody?


PURLEY -- Questioning the assertion that Purley resents Archie for being better paid.

While there's ample textual evidence that Cramer resents Wolfe for earning oodles more than Cramer does for solving crimes (e.g.,"Idon't have a Fritz" and frequent cracks about Wolfe always having a "client"), I don't recall Purley expressing the same kind of resentment toward Archie -- in fact, it would seem to me to be out of character for him, but that might just be my own take on Purley, whom I adore.

CRAMER -- "Cramer occasionally enjoys twitting Wolfe by rising from the red leather chair without using his arms for leverage – something that Wolfe cannot do."

I don't remember this from the books, only being dumbfounded by it in a recent viewing of the 1981 TV series, which substituted this 'look ma, no hands' gimmick for Cramer's signature cigar (it's even in the opening credits for each episode).

Possibly Archie mentioned this once and then forgot about it because Stout didn't consider it worth continuing? That's just a guess, but even if there is a lone reference to this supposed Wolfe-twitting trick, it very definitely isn't something for which Cramer is known (other than by fans of the 1981 TV series).RRRRowcliff (talk) 19:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

TurnerHodges here, and I made the contributions. I will have to do some research. My memory has it that it was Archie, not Purley, who speculated on Purley's reasons for helping to keep their relationship a testy one (and if that's the case, I will revise to indicate that it's a speculation by one fictional character about another one). I think I can find that, if indeed it exists. I agree that it would be seriously weird for Purley to say so. I may have difficulty with the business about getting up from a chair: I have only about half the corpus on my shelves -- the rest have grown legs. I remember watching the Conrad - Horsley series when it first appeared and being delighted that it was faithful to the books to the extent that Cramer stood up using his leg muscles only (but my delight didn't last long). So I had read it somewhere -- problem is that I no longer know where, it may be in a book I don't have, and now I'm asking for some help. I further agree that the standing-up jab isn't a running bit, it may be a one-off, and could therefore be removed without much pain. TurnerHodges (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I had a hunch and for once it paid off. I find this in PB, at the end of chapter 14: "[Purley] knew that my take-home pay, considering that my home was with Wolfe, was at least four times his, and he wasn't going to sponge fried clams off of any goddam plutocrat." There's more, both immediately before and immediately after. I admit that the quoted portion does not directly translate to "Stebbins resents Archie, largely because Archie is paid much more money," but it's close. I also believe that there are other relevant citations, but I'm not looking for them. I have a life, and right now I have to polish my spats. TurnerHodges (talk) 20:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for responding. Knowing now that it was you, I'm sure there was some basis for those character comments. But there's really no practical way for anyone to dig out whatever evidence may exist to support the assertions; it would have to be left to chance, i.e., the lot of us keeping the questionable comments in mind during re-reads.
Re: Purley -- The quote you came up with sounds more to me like Archie projecting how he would feel in Purley's postion. And I could easily believe that Archie would prefer to believe that Purley resents him for something other than just being a pain in the tail.:-)
Re: Cramer -- I actually did do a search of sorts through some NW forum archives and on the internet. The only thing that popped up for a 'look ma, no hands' type thing was a passing mention, uncited, in an essay on NW by a fan on her son's website; she might have gotten it from a book, the 1981 TV series, or, for that matter, from the Wiki entry.

RRRRowcliff (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll soften the description of Purley's attitude toward Archie. As to Lt. Rowcliff and stuttering, that's another instance of a possible one-off. Somewhere, Archie says that he tries to gauge exactly when Rowcliff will start to stutter, and then to anticipate Rowcliff by stuttering himself. Nevertheless, your implication is correct, I think, that Archie more frequently comments only on Rowcliff's stuttering. I find that I feel a little uncomfortable talking about this at all, but thirty years after his death we know that there was very little PC about the esteemed Mr. Stout. TurnerHodges (talk) 17:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

For some reason, the edit summary did not pick up my comment on restoring "likable" from the change to "likeable." My Random House Unabridged prefers "likable," while giving "likeable" as a variant. OTOH, the SOED prefers "likeable" and gives "likable" as a variant. It appears to be an issue of British vs. American spelling. However, I'll rely on a British source, Fowler's Modern English Usage: When a suffix is added to a word ending in mute "e", the mute "e" should be dropped before a vowel, but not before a consonant, unless it is needed to indicate a soft "g" or "c" preceding. TurnerHodges (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cramer's Son

I just noticed the mention in the Cramer article that Cramer's son fought in the European theater in WWII. I may be forgetting a reference, but the only mention I recall of Cramer's son is in Not Quite Dead Enough, beginning of Chap. 9 (Farrar & Rinehart, War Edition). Archie has just given his report about Ann Amory to Wolfe and Cramer, and Cramer says, "I had a headache and now it's worse. My son's in Australia with the Air Corps. He's a bombardier." Is there another reference indicating that young Cramer also fought in the European theater? Amy Duncan (talk) 23:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I've skimmed through what I think would be the likely candidates (Booby Trap, Black Orchids, The Silent Speaker, Instead of Evidence) and found nothing on point, other than your citation from NQDE. In Booby Trap there is a reference to Colonel Ryder's son, who had shot down four enemy planes in Europe. Possibly the contributor who wrote that confused the two (or maybe it's really there, somewhere unexpected such as A Family Affair). TurnerHodges (talk) 23:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll see your two Cramer citations and raise you one. :-). No, seriously, I think it was a good idea to put a citation tag on Cramer's getting up from a chair without using his hands because you contributed it and have some recollection of seeing it in some book. But in the case of Cramer's son, we don't know who contributed "European theater" and we do now know for a fact, per Amy Duncan, that he did serve in Australia, so I'd vote for Amy to go ahead and change his service venue and include her citation; if the European theater contributor or anyone else comes across a reference for that one, he can put it back in.RRRRowcliff (talk) 02:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Rowcliff

"Rowcliff is the only character acknowledged by Stout to have been consciously modeled and named after a real-life person" -- is this true? It seems to me that there's an old photo of an Archie Goodwin in McAleer's Stout bio, an Indiana (?) police officer who once did something helpful for the Stout family, perhaps investigating a burglary or some such. This is a very vague recollection, but if I'm right then it may be that the "only character" comment might have to be softened. TurnerHodges (talk) 17:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's true, unless there's another case of Rex Stout ever acknowledging such a thing. I've amended the Rowcliff citation to include McAleer's question to Stout about Rowcliff, which he prefaces with the statement, "You've said you've never modeled a character on anyone you know..." — WFinch (talk) 21:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)