Talk:Nell Gwyn

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Great work on this article so far. It's stable, well referenced, and should definately go through a peer review to help identify those details that will upgrade the article to "A". Nightngle 17:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

Nell Gwyn is most commonly said to have been born in Hereford (and sometimes Covent Garden). Emphasis in the article incorrectly implies Covent Garden as the most likely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.67.37.104 (talk • contribs) .

Hopefully it's pretty equivocal now about her place of birth. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All Mistaken, or The Mad Couple

Most sources say James Howard's All Mistaken, or The Mad Couple premiered in 1667. This is unfortunately important to the chronology of "gay couple" roles I have in the article now. Howe says (without any hints that the information may be suspect) that it premiered in 1665 and was the first of Gwyn and Hart's gay couple roles. I note this issue has apparently been raised as early as 1964, in an Oxford journal Notes and Queries (see [1]) but I don't have access to that text. I also note that Wagonheim's Annals of English Drama, 975-1700 says "1665?" and cryptically (to me) "mistakenly given title of The Widow and attributed to Roger Boyle". Anybody have any good info? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I took so long. Unfortunately I can't access N&Q that far back either, but the Fount of All Knowledge, The London Stage, 1660—1700, says in its first edition, 1965, that September 1667 was the first recorded performance (known because Pepys went to it). Scrupulous as always, though, the LS points out that there's no indication that that performance was the première. Both Sutherland in your N&Q reference, and Robert D. Hume in a Philological Quarterly article in 1972, have argued that the première was actually in May 1665, and obviously Howe is taking that as proven. I would, too, even without reading these articles, and even though your "most sources" say 1667. You're probably ahead of me by now, but I'll lay it out:
  1. The LS is purveying the best info they had at the time. They're not arguing new info might not come to light.
  2. Both Sutherland and Hume are big, big authorities.
  3. Howe seems to be taking the 1665 date as proven, as you say, and she's a careful scholar also.
The only intriguing bit is that the LS didn't in 1965 utilize N&Q info from 1964. Hang on. No it isn't. Ha. The preface to the LS has this narrative about how long the volumes were in the press, how all the original editors complicated matters by dropping dead, etc. And the preface is dated 1963. No, there's nothing intriguing, you can safely use the May 1665 date. Bishonen | talk 19:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC).
Great! I really appreciate you having a look and weighing in. Stylistically, do you think I'd be being too scrupulous if I noted the issue in a footnote? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I got my info from Hume, The Development of English Drama (1976), which probably appears in all my Restoration reference sections, being a book of most excellent usefulness. He does talk as if it's arguable, rather than certain: "Secret Love (February 1667), a very popular play, is the first great example of the split plot mode. I have argued elsewhere, however, that James Howard's All Mistaken; or The Mad Couple was perrformed in the late spriing of 1665, in which case it would be the prototype and have an important influence on the form of Dryden's play" (p. 253). So perhaps the date being somewhat uncertain does deserve a brief mention. As you say, the chronology there is rather important for Nell. Howe may not be the best source to cite at that juncture, since I expect she merely read it in Hume's book.
The phrase "the gay couple" was invented by John Harrington Smith, and is the title of his book on the subject, in case you want to add some more footnote pedantry. Btw, I think Howe is being a little feminist there. It's hardly fair to credit the success of the gay couple entirely to Nell! Compare the more even-handed treatment in, ahem, The Country Wife: "Many critics credit the personalities and skills of Hart and Nell Gwyn with creating, as much as any playwright did, the famous flirting/bantering Restoration comedy couple." Bishonen | talk 20:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC).
I added a caveat to the footnote. I also added a "goes so far as" qualifier to the Howe quote on Nell and the gay couple; I'd hate to lose the quote altogether or spend much more space there on dithering, though. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Names, or The Dumb Question

So all the plays back then have these XXX, or The YYY names. Just curious: is there any deeper answer to the question "why did they?" than "they just did"? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Different productions sometimes gave the same (basic) play different titles. When they were published, both titles were used. (Same idea is still around today: a movie is often released under different titles in different countries). After a while, it became a tradition to have the "or" titles, the second of which is, you'll note, generally more descriptive of the action (e.g. Kyd's A Spanish Tragedy, or Hieronymo's Mad Again)... Titles as printed often differed from those used at the time of production: no one ever said "Hey, you want to go down to the Globe tonight to catch The most excellent Historie of the Merchant o Venice with the extreame crueltie of Shylocke the Iewef towards the sayd Merchant, in cutting a iust pound of his flesh: and the obtaying of Portia by the choyse of three chests As it hath beene diuers times acted by the Lord Chamberlaine his Seruants." (I wonder how many such play's titles would have to be listed as spoilers if given in Wikipedia! - Nunh-huh 14:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)