Talk:Neferneferuaten
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Hi - is the existance of these monarch generally accepted ? Markh 13:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Markh,
The latest research indicates a clear Yes--there are 2 kings with the prenomen Ankhkheprure/Ankhetkheprure who are Smenkare and Neferneferuaten respectively. Only the female king Achencheres in Manetho's account is mentioned by name in Manetho's Epitome. I know that Dodson's book the Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt accepts that Neferneferuaten followed after the male king Smenkare--but I can't presently cite the page number. But I can cite the November 2006 book titled "Handbook of Egyptian Chronology' by E. Hornung, R. Krauss and David Warburton[1] where the 3 editors, who have access to the latest scholarship, also cite Neferneferuaten's existence as a separate king on p.207--look at the article on Smenkhkare where I include a short excerpt from their book on the situation. Their chronology table for the 18th dynasty places Smenkhkare and then Neferneferuaten between the death of Akhenaten and the accession of Tutankhamun. (pp.492-493) Finally, James Allen's on-line paper on the Amarna Succession here[2]--which will be published in a 2007 book in memory of W. Murnane--also distinguishes the male king Smenkare from the female king Neferneferuaten in its first two pages alone; he then discusses Smenkhkare's existence in pages 3 & 5. Neferneferuaten's proposed identity is discussed on pages 14-16 of Allen's paper. The age and gender of the KV55 mummy is certainly that of a young male aged 18-22 yrs (see page 6, Allen paper, second paragraph; the point here is that Neferneferuaten was certainly a woman since she is given the epithet "justified/effective for her husband" in several inscriptions whereas the KV55 mummy is a man--hence they cannot be identical) Anyone who suggests that Nefertiti pretended to be a male king would have to contend with the question of how this Amarna king died as a male instead! Pls note that Bob Brier, the famous New York anatomist also agress the KV55 body is that of a man in his 1998 book "The Encyclopedia of Mummies" on p.182 where he cites both Dr. Derry's older 1931 examination of the body as well as Dr. R. Harrison's mid-1960's X-rays of the mummy to prove this point beyond doubt. See Smenkhkare, the 'mummy in tomb KV55.' Hence, Smenkhkare was a man whereas Neferneferuaten was a woman; they are 2 different people which is why Dodson, Allen & Hornung/Krauss/Warburton all consisitently distinguish between these 2 kings in their latest publications.
The only question which you rightly raise is the line of succession--did Neferneferuaten directly succeed Akhenaten as Allen thinks or did she succeed Smenkhkare. If the latter is true, the odds are she was Meritaten, Smenkhkare's spouse--with Nefertiti Tasherit being as second viable possibility as Allen thinks. Leoboudv 20:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Hi, thats a fairly complete answer, however I'm still not sure that this is generally accepted, and the articles need to show this. having read Manetho, the 18th Dynasty is very confused, especially at the end and the identification of who is who in KV55 is uncertain. I'm also not saying any of the above is wrong either. I need to read through the documents, all of which look interesting. Markh 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
That fine Markh. May I call your attention to page 14, footnote 60 of James Allen's paper, The Amarna Succession It's not only James Allen, Rolf Krauss, Erik Hornung or myself who accepts that the king's daughter Akenkeres listed in Manetho's Epitome was a reference to Ankh[et]kheperure Neferneferuaten. The respected French scholar M. Gabolde also accepts this in his 1998 book 'From Akhenaten to Tutankhamun.' So, that is why I felt one needed to urgently create a separate page for Neferneferuaten. Contributors were tripping over each other arguing whether Smenkare was a man or a woman on the Smenkhkare article because no one realised that Ankhkheprure was actually 2 separate rulers who shared the same prenomen. Aidan Dodson has himself publicly repudiated his previous position that Smenkare was the same person as Neferneferuaten on page 285, footnote #111 of his 2004 book The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt. Dodson states elsewhere in his book that "the latest evidence seems to point to a male [king] Smenkhkare, [being] succeeded by a woman Neferneferuaten." (p.150) So, both Dodson and Gabolde also accept that Neferneferuaten and Smenkhkare are 2 different rulers. I cite Dodson's book because it may be more accessible to you. Regards, Leoboudv 04:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Great stuff. I'm OK with what is Dodson and Allen (although I haven't read anything other than the conclusion). I'm not sure about Manetho, as it is less clear and at least second hand via Josephus, etc. If this is now more accepted, then that is great. There maybe a need to have an Amarna Succession article, just to clarify, or at least note, the uncertainty (there I go again). I read the Barbara Waterson book's chapter on KV55 last night and I may add some stuff from this later. Markh 07:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
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Most likely Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten are the same person! By year 6 of the reign of Akhenaten, Nefertiti showed her devotion to Aten by changing her name from Nefertiti to Nefernefruaten-Nefertiti. When her status was increasing she dissepeared and a new caracter appeared-Smenkhkare. It should be noted that the indications are that the queen and the co-regent are the same; co-regent not onely bears one of the Queen´S names, "Beloved of Akhenaten" but his nomen occurs on a number of faience ring bezels in the feminine form of Ankhetkheperure. Suddenly the name changed from Nefernefruaten-Nefertiti to Nefernefruaten-Smenkhkare, and finally to Ankhkheprure-Smenkhkare. This is not just a coincidence and does indicate that Nefernefruaten never ruled at all and should not be called a pharaoh, and first of all not be put after Smenkhkare. Nicholas Reeves puts Smenkhkare after Neferneferuaten. The mummy found in KV55 could be quite possibly that of Akhenaten himself. So why is Neferneferuaten placed as a predecessor and successor of Smenkhkare because he ruled (if he ruled at all) ,according to et least some scolars, most likely after him? Egyptzo 17:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
No. Reeves forgot to mention Manetho's specific comment that 'a king's daughter' assumed the throne. Neferiti was many things but she wasn't a king's daughter. This means one of Akhenaten's and her daughters, either Neferneferuaten Tasherit or Meritaten, assumed power and ruled as a female king. I agree that the KV55 body could be Akhenaten but that is a different subject. Leoboudv (talk) 10:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
