Talk:Nazi concentration camps

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[edit] Move

Why is this entry necessary in addition to List of concentration camps for Poles? Moncrief, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Someone moved the camps detaining other people then Poles also, to the new entry.
The idea was to split the original list into three obvious pieces: Nazi, Gulag, and unclear. This separation is not dogma. If someone proves that Tomsk camp was set up by Hitler, he is welcome to make corrections. Mikkalai 17:04, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The whole list was copied over from the Polish law. I think the list was created by some historians working for Polish government, to verify retirenment rights of former prisoners. Somebody can claim, i.e. that he was imprisoned in concentration camp Washington DC, but then he can be verified by the list of actually existing camps. Logically derived conclusion says, the list should include all existing camps. Cautious 08:43, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I digged up some more Polish laws and more explanations. We are lucky is was an earlier version of the list, otherwise we'd had to sift out the detainment sites for members of Solidarity and other more recent dissidents. Mikkalai 09:04, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Lucky Solidarity leaders were, no to be in hands of Nazis or Soviets in their places of imprisonement. Cautious 09:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No objections on Mark's move of this particular page, but I have to notice that is is done formally, without putting the content into accordance with the tille, leaving a possibility for a next best wikipedian to come, read the article, and move it somewhere else. Mikkalai 19:44, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)? who?

[edit] Denial

Holocaust denial is not a "phenomenon", it is a propaganda campaign by those who seek another opportunity to commit genocide. Describing it as a phenomenon denies that it is a willful act (which incidentally is recognized as a criminal act in many European countries.)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 17.203.20.170 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Merger

Does anyone disagree that this page should be merged with Extermination camps in the Holocaust? AdamBiswanger1 16:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I certainly don't - the other article has all the hallmarks of a POV fork, using two loaded words (extermination and holocaust) neither of which is appropriate in the title of an encyclopaedia article, however valid they may be in informal speech. Just zis Guy you know? 12:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, but then again we can't have a PC fest and throw Truth under the bus. "Concentration camps" is the most common usage, but perhaps they were used outside of what we consider the "halocaust"? What do you suggest for the title? (I don't think this one here is bad at all) AdamBiswanger1 12:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Nazi concentration camps works well enough for me. They were used for more than extermination and more than just Jews, so it seems to be a reasonably inclusive and unambiguous name. Maybe it could be a bit sharper, but the other article is a clear problem. Just zis Guy you know? 12:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
And yet no one involved in that article seems to want to address the idea of merging it. I think we should go ahead and do it, because it's clearly, as you said, a POV fork, and we can carefully merge any info not present in this article, noting the supposed distinction between death camps, labor camps, and concentration camps. AdamBiswanger1 13:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem here. In an article I have just edited, I specifically wanted a WP link to the death/extermination camps. If we merge, then such links may appear to be simply to labour camps and the result may be confusing. I would therefore be very chary about straightforward merging.Smerus 13:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuals

Can we please remove homosexuals from the list of victims. It is true that there were homosexuals in the camps, but they were not there just because they were homosexual, and most homosexuals in Nazi Germany never saw the inside of a prison much less a camp. Many were high ranking nazis. They were as much victims as men standing 5'6.73324" tall. Yes there were men 5'6.73324" tall in the concentration camps. Yes this fact was recorded by camp personel. But there were plenty of men 5'6.73324" tall outside the camp or even acting as guards. 88.155.171.247 08:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

- This is nonsense, a vile little piece of holocaust denial in its own right. Homosexuals were targeted as a group, like the other group victims of the Nazis, and thus deserve a mention.

[edit] Soviet Use of Nazi Camps After the War

Can anyone add more info on the extended use of many concentration camps by the Soviets after the war? To my knowledge, the deadly regimes of the camps continued for some time, only with German victims and a different totalitarian system in charge. Something like 2 million Germans were murdered in the 18 months following may 1945, and the now-Soviet run concentration camps played their part in this relatively unknown piece of genocide.

See the Wikipedia article Soviet special camps, although there's very little there. They weren't necessarily the concentration camps, by the way. The POW camp (an important distinction) Stalag IV-B, Muhlberg (near Neuburxdorf in what is now southern Brandenburg) was used that way. 140.147.160.78 18:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

[edit] Request for documentation

The subsection titled: Use of Nazi German concentration camp facilities after the war lacks documentation. Will someone fill in the cites? Skywriter 00:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

HanzoHattori responded to this request for documentation by inappropriately labeling the request "vandalism" and, surprisingly enough, reverting the request to an earlier version that lacks documentation.

The request for documentation and proper citation stands. Thank you. Skywriter 22:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Whole article lacks documentation, not this. What's your problem, you don't belive it? Why? --HanzoHattori 20:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third Request for Documentation

My request for documentation was reverted by HanzoHattori who does not seem to grasp the need for and requirement for documentation. The above two requests for documentation is reinstated and I ask this new and apparently inexperienced user to please avoid labeling colleagues as "trolls" or "vandals" as this is both off-putting and can quickly lead to troubles.

I will restate what is needed: Documentation of what transpired at the camps under Soviet control and buttressing of the claims of mass fatalities. These are not trivial claims and can not be included in any encyclopedia without documentation. Please refer to credible websites, journals or books that originally provide this information.

I ask also that HanzoHattori respond on this Talk page to concerns before arbitrarily deleting requests for documentation.

Thank you. Skywriter 18:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] West Germany special camps?

Appearently for the former SS and their families (30,000 at Dachau).[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skorpio-88 (talk • contribs) 12:27, September 24, 2006


Thanks, Skorpio. The link is helpful. Skywriter 17:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "money" picture

I'm not 100% sure that the picture of what purports to be "concentration camp" money was actually issued or valid at concentration camps. The large-scale picture is clearly legible and the money is self-identified as POW (kreigsgefangener) money, intended for use at POW camps and issued by the Wehrmacht, instead of the SS. COuld it be that the same currency was used at both, or is the poster of the picture mistaken? Pat Payne 22:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

After looking over the picture again, it explicitly states that the money was valid only in Prisoner of War camps or in authorized "work commands". Besides, concentration camp prisoners were worked as slaves or murdered outright, so why would the Nazi regime go to the trouble of printing currency for them? I went ahead and deleted the image from the article on that basis. Pat Payne 14:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
There was no money in the concentration camps. Prisoners could let send money from home and that was put on an account. Occasionally it was possible to buy some food (not at the end of the war) or cigarettes from the money on that account. Very often the cigarettes were stolen by the capo's and co-called green-cloths (people carrying a green triangle indicating that they were professional criminals. In most camps the green-cloths were aids of the capo's, except for Buchenwald where the communist prisoners had much power inside the camp. Robvhoorn (added 17 June 2007)
Indeed, there’s no question whether this was used in concentration camps: it says right on the bill that these are coupons for the exclusive use of POWs inside POW camps and work details (“Dieser Gutschein gilt nur als Zahlungsmittel für Kriegsgefangene und darf von ihnen nur innerhalb der Kriegsgefangenenlager oder bei Arbeitskommandos...verausgabt und entgegengenommen werden.”). Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 04:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
A POW-camp is not the same as a concentration camp. Indeed, in some concentration camps were sometimes a small number of POW's from western countries. But even then the POW's got in general a much better treatment than than the political prisoners or Jews. The money you refer to was probably only in use in pure POW-camps. You should not compare POW's from the western countries with concentration camp prisoners or Russian POW's, except for a very small number that indeed was treated terribly or even executed in the concentration camps. For the lemma about concentration camps only Jews, POW's of Russian origin, political prisoners, prisoners from Slavic countries and some smaller groups of prisoners are relevant.

[edit] African camps

I do not have the information ready to write a piece, but why is there no mention of the concentration camps that were set up in North Africa? There was a book written about this last year, there was at least one in Tunisia. The author of the book pointed, as a sidenote, to the reference in Casablanca to the concentration camps in Africa.71.203.169.248 04:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps because to date no one was aware of them. If you can write the material and source it reliably, please do. Jim_Lockhart 05:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

I am sensing a general feeling of anti-nazi views in this article. Please do your best to get this fixed.


It's hard to make information sound neutral when the facts are not only so horrifying, but have been proven. You won't find any reputible source that doesn't sound anti-Nazi, and for good reason. The article stays the way it is.

[edit] "Nazi-German"?

Oh god. What else Nazis ever were? --HanzoHattori 20:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Nazi Germany was a nation-state. Nazis were from Germany. Hence Nazis were Germans, and unlike modern international neo-Nazi fortified camps scattered around the world, "old-Nazi" camps were solely German- to make it simple employing the above syllogisms. "Nazi" is much too ambiguous and of imprecise accuracy, dare I say vague... 83.5.231.156 21:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And what else "Nazi" state ever was? It's like "stinky stink". --HanzoHattori 08:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Yeah. This is very unidiomatic, un-English usage. I'll rename it back. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jehovah's Witnesses, in or out?

The article’s intro, where it mentions groups targeted by the Nazis for internment, is not discussing absolute or even relative numbers; the Jehovah’s Witnesses were targeted for internment as a group—as evidenced by the Nazis’ marking them as a specific group inside the camps (they got the green violet triangles, didn’t they?).

In contrast, protestants and Catholic priests who were interned were done so not because of they were protestants or priests, but because the Nazis considered them undesirables for other reasons.

That the Jehovah’s Witnesses were targeted is clear from numerous sources, so there’s no reason for this to be repeatedly deleted—and even less reason for the abusive and uncivil remarks, whether directed at other editors or the JWs themselves. Jim_Lockhart 14:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The JWs were imprisoned simply because they draft resisters - they don't serve in ANY army ANYWHERE. That's it, all. Nothing really to do with their religion on the side of the Germany (they just wanted them to support the German military), and nothing particulary to do with the Nazi regime in their refusal to serve. All JWs were (and are) draft resisters, but not all resisters were JWs. Additionally, for example, some 100,000 German soldiers were executed for desertion and related offenses like "cowardice" or refusing orders (mostly late war). And what, 2,500 or so JWs singled out because they died because they were notorious draft dodgers, and even when they not executed? --HanzoHattori 15:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, actually only 2,000 died (out of 12,000 imprisoned - "large numbers"? there were more Italian soldiers in the camps).

In May 1933 the Gestapo searched the house of Ewald Vorsteher, who had been disfellowshipped from the society in the 1920s for refusing to accept the new leadership following the crisis sparked by Pastor Russell's death in 1917. The writings found in his home were highly critical of Hitler's regime, and were used as a basis for condemning the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower Society reacted by strongly rejecting Ewald Vorsteher and his opinions.

Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses --HanzoHattori 15:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
And here, to confim it's their USUAL practice: Beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses

Additionally, Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to serve in military organizations, citing the principle they call Christian Neutrality. They understand Jesus' words , "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world," to mean that they should take a neutral stand concerning political and military controversies.[62]

Historically, this refusal to join the military has created serious difficulties for Jehovah's Witnesses, particularly in war time. During World War II, young Witnesses in a number of countries were executed for their conscientious objection to war; even in more democratic countries they were generally refused exemption from conscription and have often been imprisoned. (...) During World War II Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted by the Allies and the Axis powers for refusing to participate in these powers' respective war efforts.
And during the war the Germans were imprisoning any people mostly in the concentration camps. Draft resisters too. That's it, that's all. I understand 2,000 martyrs are important for the JW faithful, but I don't why it's important here. --HanzoHattori 15:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you’re saying, but none of it changes the history that the Nazis had a policy of interning JWs (Bibelforscher) for no other reason than that they were JWs. They were not interned because of their individual, personal beliefs (i.e., directly because of their refusal to serve in the military); but rather because they were members of a specific group that the Nazis had identified as an enemy. That’s why they got thrown into concentration camps and were assigned a specific identifying mark (the violet triangles: see Nazi concentration camp badges#Table of camp inmate markings). The point about mentioning them here was neither their numbers, nor why they were interned; it is that they were targeted as a group for internment, just as were the other groups specifically mentioned.

As I wrote above, protestants and Catholics (clergy or lay) who were interned, were interned as political and other similarly classified prisoners, not because of their being members of a specific, targeted groups (i.e., because of their being protestants or Catholics); JWs, in contrast, were interned because they were JWs, regardless of their personal political or other beliefs or actions. The number of JW deaths, or even whether they were executed, is irrelevant here (further, the article is not claiming that they were sent to extermination camps nor that they were killed in great numbers—though it might be more relevant to cite what proportion of JWs were killed as opposed to the absolute number: there is no argument about whether they were a small minority). Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 16:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

One more thing: if what you’re so worked about about is “Large numbers ... of Jehova’s Witnesses”, couldn’t this be easily resolved by changing “Large numbers” to “Varying numbers”? You certainly are correct in objecting to “large numbers” also modifying JWs if their numbers were so relatively small to those of other groups! Jim_Lockhart 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, really? How about, say, Confessing Church? They were anti-Nazi and underground in principle (VS Nazi Protestant Reich Church). JWs were jailed for specifically for their draft-dodging just like in the Allied countries - no one was ever jailed for not joining NSDAP, it was a volunteery organisation. Wikipedia itself says "because Jehovah's Witnesses would not give allegiance to the Nazi party, and refused to serve in the military" (which is one thing, as the every German soldier would be required to say the oath to Adolf Hitler).
So, the reason was their draft dodging, they did not do much more if anything more than this (as a group) - if not this, they would have no problems with their apoloticism (they were no threat whatsoever). In the countries in which Roman Catholic bishops, and even Roman Catholics themselves had openly protested and attacked Nazi policies, like in the Netherlands and Poland where bishops and priests had protested to the deportations of Jews - on the other hand, mainstream JWs "strongly rejected" mentioned dissident Vorsteher's criticism of the regime. And no, conscription refusal is not "their individual, personal beliefs" - not joining (any) military or politics is one of fundaments of the group's ideology, worldwide.
And if you mention someone in the intro, I think it should be "large numbers" anyway. --HanzoHattori 17:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Your final point, about “large numbers”, is certainly valid; but the rest of your arguments are specious at best. The Jehovah’s Witness’s organization was banned by the Nazis as early as 1933 and they were hated initially because of their alleged connections to the Jews and subversive political movements: Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses#In Nazi Germany (1933-1945). The Confessing Church was not outlawed in this way, and its persecuted members were not persecuted because of their affiliation with the church, but because of their personal political activism. I stand by may arguments about why JWs were persecuted by the Nazis, and by my argument that they are worthy of mention (albeit perhaps without the “large numbers” qualification, and certainly at the end of the enumeration and not in a separate sentence, which would give them too much prominence), and that such mention is historically accurate and accepted by mainstream historians.

On another matter, and although I have no desire to be seen as defending JWs per se, it is factually and sematically inaccurate to describe JWs as “draft dodgers” or “draft resistors”, since these are negatively loaded terms that ignore JWs’ theological justification for their being conscientious objectors.

I strongly suggest you find a way to work mention of the JWs into the introduction as one of the groups singled out by the Nazis for persecution and internment in KZs. How you do it, with all the numbers and such, is up to you; but in the interests of Wikipedia’s credibility, I suggest you do it, since you seem unwilling to allow anyone else to. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 23:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Role of Catholic Party 'das Zentrum'

Look at the articles of Dachau and Zentrumspartei. Dachau was founded at 23 March 1933, the Catholic party das Zentrum was in the government coalition until it dissolved itself at 6 July 1933. It is obvious that das Zentrum was in the government at the moment of foundation of Dachau. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robvhoorn (talk • contribs) 21:33, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death toll

What's the death toll of Nazi concentration camps? This should be mentioned in lead.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paramilitary organizations

This can be found in the text: "The Nazis were the only political party in Germany with paramilitary organizations at its disposal, the Schutzstaffel (SS) and the Sturmabteilung (SA), both of which perpetrated surprise attacks on the offices and members of other parties throughout the 1920s."

and is not correct. The SA was not the only paramilitary organization (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotfrontk%C3%A4mpferbund - Rotfrontkämpferbund) - also note that the SS was very small in the 1920 and got only important after 1934. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.234.57 (talk) 01:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "14f3"

What is "14f3"? It is under "Camps during the War". If it is not needed, then somebody please remove/delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.163.155 (talk) 00:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It is based on the reference number from the Concentration Camp Inspectorate. Conversely, 14f1 were natural deaths; 14f2 was suicide or accidental death; 14f3 was shot while attempting to escape; 14fl was execution; etc. Looks like a 1 is missing, instead of 14f3, 14f13. El_C 00:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)