Talk:Nazca Lines/Archive 1

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[edit] Pampa region

The pampa region linked to (around buenos aires, argentina) does not seem to be the pampa region mentioned in this article (southern peru).

[edit] Does anybody in Wikipedia remember Maria Reiche?

Maria Reiche dedicated all her life to take care and explain these lines and there is not a single line about her or her work. On the contrary there are references for ufologist, is this a serious work? Hard to believe that all crazy theories are mentioned here.

I have added a section on Maria Reich's work in preserving the lines--Crais459 09:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove below, is this archeological article or "Fortean Times"?

Others believe that the lines are a warning of something to come, a great calamity or the end of the the world. Some believe that the lines were intended as a warning - one of the drawings depicts a monkey with only 4 fingers on one hand. This sort of deformity would have been feared, although the lines' representation of animals is, at best, inaccurate. The shape of the lines, which forms an hourglass, may also support the idea that the lines represent some sort of countdown. It is also suggested that the lines are a large star map that details the future positions of stars, perhaps hinting at a cosmically-inspired calamity.

[edit] This article 5uxx0rd hard...=

I mean, jesus, the rotten dot com article was better (not like i'm surprised ;-)). I took some stuff from the spanish article, removed that heading, changed the order around, added some verifiable info (all figures are from the spanish article, converted to miles for the sake of a one unit article, even tho i prefer SI units) and tried to cordon off the whack-job UFO stuff into the "alternate theory" section, so as to not make the article too POV. As you can tell from this post, you know where my sympathies lie in regards to the whole space aliens thing. Honestly, it's the same thing iwth the pyramids; people just don't have faith in the ability of man to accomplish anything of value without introducing some whacky deus ex machina. Why can't you believe that ancient indians could scrape gravel off of white dirt! So strange. I think i'll go back and add a link to the rotten dot com article, which is hilarious, btw, and puts these UFO guys in their place. I also added the first picture you now see, although it's a cropped version of a creative commons pic. i just cropped out some empty desert. i don't know whether this is a violation of some kind, but I wasn't about to go through all that BS about mediawiki just to crop a pic. If there's a problem, I'm terribly sorry to the person whose vacation it came from (which i think is the actual source, from what i could gather from the spanish wikipedia) GuildNavigator84 11:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A new theory. Nazca lines were simple property lines or grazing lands divisions for herders.

1.The Nazca were herders. (http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/press/news/news07/press_516e.html) The pampa was grass lands due to warmer climate. I have lived in Bolivia for 17 years and the people are very organized. Similar pie shaped modern "nucleos" can be see in San Julian, Brecha Casarabe Quechua homestead area of Eastern Bolivia. This is simply the most effecient way to mark of boundry lines for property. (see from Google earth for resemblence (N. of Santa Cruz) The lines were simply trail lines used to lead animals to and from pasture to and from a central corral. As dessertification became more accute and limite pasture more valuable the community probably organized to adminster grass lands and laid off lines to orgainize grazing rights among clans or families or communities. Defined trails to a center corral would have reduced trail erosion, something all herdering cultures in dry areas are sensetive to.

That is my theory anyway. This could be studied by looking for remenents of higher salt content at the center of the "nucleos"(salt used for animal feed supplement), or higher organic content from manure build up. 74.195.50.163 05:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The animals were probably clan totems and used in ritual walking as discussed in the articleor were used to catch water as the glyphs at El Fuerte at Samaipata.

[edit] How were the lines discovered?

This article does not mention anything about how the lines were discovered by our modern civilization (Just like we know that Machu Picchu was "discovered" by Hiram Bingham). Anyone (with good sources) could add that info? --Abu badali (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map image

Can you tell me something about the new map I added. thanks --– Emperor Walter Humala · ( shout! · sign? ) 16:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Having a map is no doubt very helpful; I can't comment on accuracy because I don't know where any of the things are. However, I'm guessing that the item labeled 'tiger' is mislabeled; more likely a jaguar? user:66.194.72.10

  • No, it's a dog. In fact, there's a picture of it labelled as such, further on in the article. Similarly, the image marked 'kiwi' on the map is, of course, no such thing. The image marked 'algae' is called 'tree' on other maps I've seen, although at least one could argue that its seaweed-like. I'm going to remove the link to the map, for the time being. Anaxial 19:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In response to those who believe it wasnt done by extraterrestrial beings

although there are some that doubt that man is incapable of doing things that are deemed as "impossible" one should consider some facts --- how is it that such a primitive tribe was able to construct such very large and quite proportionate pictures without seeing as a whole what they created being that the figures are only visible from a certain distance in the sky? ---how is it possible that the iron material used to construct the figures was 100% iron considering that 100% iron material is impossible to obtain? user:76.173.162.154

Though this is a silly place to discuss this, I can't resist. First of all, the article states that iron oxide, a far cry from pure iron, was used. Secondly, I'm no Nazca Indian, but I think even I could figure out how to make the approximate shape I wanted on a huge scale without seeing it. All it takes is a coordinate system-any spot that needed to be white, and the lines connecting them, can be drawn out in miniature and the distances beween two lines calculated. Then, all it takes is some very long ropes or accurate pacing to determines which spots need to be dug. I don't know if that's actually how the Nazca did it, but it is certainly one possibility. user:66.194.72.10

First of... Think about it.... You said all they need is rope.. But you're not thinking how long of rope you would need.... We're talking miles and miles... Who could or would construct rope that long? Then you said pacing.... Again... Miles and Miles... Years and years.... Not possible... Try again..

Even if making a rope that long were as hard as you claim, you could use a smaller piece of rope as a unit of measurement and use it several times to cover a long distance, making a marking in the sand every time you use one length of rope, I'm sure the Nazca could've figured that out. 69.251.246.75 14:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I want to read...

...more about the "extensive network of underground canals and waterways found dating from the same period." That's a nice little bomb to drop at the very end with no more info. Sounds about more interesting than the Nazca lines, doesn't it? Can someone add more info, or a link, or better still another article? Amity150 04:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

While these are interesting as an early example of fully covered irrigation canals in the Americas, there are older irrigation canals at [Cumbe Mayo] which show a much earlier example of a massive engineering project in the Americas. I'll see if I can't dig up some pictures of the Nasca irrigation system though. I personally don't view the Nasca lines as something significant on an engineering level, these would have been constructed using simple maths known in ancient America for millenia for building irrigation canals, but as art pieces they are impressive. Zenyu 22:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Any satellite images?

How comes that none of these images of birds and monkeys etc. can be seen on Google Earth? Are they too small or is the contrast too bad? If somebody has found them, a link here would be great! --'''''T'''d'''L''''' 12:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I tried to find hte figures on Google Maps myself, but no succes. There are some lines and rectangles, but no animals to see. Can ano clear this up ? Is there an "oriantation" map of the area, so I could see where to look for each figure ? --90.157.176.111 12:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need Help Made Major Discovery

I think I discovered the meaning of the needle and loom glyph... I need to know who to talk to, this is pretty big. No one has published anything about it, and it's very important. Nousoul 08:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is Maria Reiche, and who is Michael Vaillant?

As the article stands now, the work of history's most celebrated and long-standing mainstream Nazca researcher — Maria Reiche — receives barely one sentence of coverage. She is still a huge name in this subject (though apparently mostly wrong in her astronomical alignment theory), and a national hero in Peru for her pioneering work -- and yet her full name doesn't even appear in the article (except as part of the name of a foundation)!

On the other hand, a "recent hypothesis from Michael Vaillant" receives three paragraphs.

Who is Michael Vaillant, and why is his hypothesis worth bringing to the attention of Wikipedia readers? Leaving aside the merits of his idea (very poor, it seems to me), and leaving aside his qualifications (unknown, ) he is evidently a poorly known figure commenting from outside of Nazca archaeology: Google reveals only 62 wiki entries as hits for "Michael Vaillant"+nazca, most of them copied directly from this Wikipedia entry. (By comparison, "Maria Reiche"+nazca scores 34,300 hits, for good reason.)

The primary source for Vaillant's hypothesis, linked to in this Wikipedia article, is itself a wiki: something called U-Sphere, for which the "Contacter l'administrateur du site" listing is in fact Michael Vaillant.

This looks very much like original research, and should probably be cut entirely. (Or, at best, reduced to a single sentence.)

At any rate, the scant coverage of Maria Reiche's decades of on-site work and the heavy coverage of Vaillant's notion is a gross misrepresentation of the state of the field, and should be reversed. For now, I'm going to go ahead and cut the Vaillant material completely.

Loxton (talk) 01:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horribly POV

This article is littered with unencyclopediatic italisized "why"s and unsourced POV statements that completely ruin the neutrality and tone of the article, and it almost completely lacks footnotes. TheOtherSiguy (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map theory

According to Zoltan Zelko's theory the straight lines of Nazca Lines represent a specific type of map of the area where the Nazca culture has florished, with 1:16 scale. Crossing points of lines: emphasized objects (e.g. settlements, fortresses, etc.). Lines themselves are denoting the "watching directions" connecting these objects.

To prove his theory he could fit a certain area of the Nazca Lines (after magnifying it to 16 times of the original) very precisely onto the map of the area of Lake Titicaca. Crossig points of lines of the Nazca drawing perfectly fall onto contemporary or historical settlements (i.e. the ruins of the latter). There is a "technical certification" of the suitability of the cartographic techniques he has used by an independent expert in his book (see below).

Note: Zoltán Zelko thinks there is a substantial difference between the 2 subsets of Nazca figures: the simple geometric shapes and lines on one hand (that he interprets as a map) and the complex drawings (e.g. animals, plants) on the other hand.

He published his theory in the following book: Author: Zoltan Zelko Title: A kosivatag titka (Hungarian, means: Secret of the Desert) Publisher: Magveto Kiado, Budapest, Hungary, 1982 ISBN: 963 271 666 3 I have the book in Hungarian language. I do not know about any English or other language editions of this work.

Hungarian Television made a documentary film on his theory and Zoltan Zelko's trip to the Nazca Lines and Lake Titicaca in the 1980's that I have seen as a child. I have only the following additional information on the film: Director: Jose Andres Laczko Director of Photography: Karoly Boldizsar

As Mr. Zelko's theory is scientifically proven (in contrary to other hypotheses included in the current article) I propose to mention the "map theory" briefly in the "Purpose" section of the article and put this book into the "References" section. I would highly welcome your help in doing that if you think this is valid and reliable information.

Thanks, 84.3.77.113 (talk) 01:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC) Gabor

[edit] Maria Reiche

There is a very good but short chapter in Bruce Chatwin's, "What Am I Doing Here" (isbn: 0-224-02634-8)called "Maria Reiche: The Riddle of The Pampa". It was written in 1975 and gives a very interesting account of their meeting in the Peruvian desert, and may be worthy of a link/mention? Zalenka [[Special:Contributions/01:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)