Talk:Natan Gamedze

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[edit] Where does R' Gamedze live?

According to the article, he lives in Jlem, but according to the Aish article, he lives in Tzfath. Tomer^talk 05:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Since everything I've read indicates he and his family make their home in Tzfath, I'm going to go ahead and change the article to reflect that. Reliably-sourced discussion indicating otherwise is, as always, welcomed. Tomer^talk 08:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Tomer. A friend of mine in Jerusalem told me that Rabbi Gamedze just moved to Jerusalem a few months ago.--EhavEliyahu 15:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Gak!* ^{[citation needed]} bleh. halp. Tomer^talk 20:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More info needed

When was he ordained a rabbi? What year did he convert as the article says 1989 yet in an interiew on his website he says 1999? Also can we get a fixed date for his D.O.B.? I think that quote at the top has to go in a well needed cleanup. Its not that its bad, its just in the wrong place I think. Olockers 21:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

There actually isn't a whole of information out there about him. A friend of mine who knows him says that he is somewhat of a private person. The web-sites quoted are the only information I have ever seen on his life.--EhavEliyahu 16:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research & problem of erroneous royalty claim

Although I think Rabbi Gamedze is interesting enough to warrant inclusion, quite fascinating actually & apparently very accomplished, the article before my recent revision seems awfully close to original research.

In particular, the rabbi's claim to be an "African prince" and royalty seems to fall under the principle of verifiability that "exceptional claims require exceptional sources."

I have done my best to create a more NPOV situation by allowing the rabbi's interpretation by leaving it to stand in his quotes, but changing some introductory language and providing a contextual gloss based on Swaziland historical scholarship and anthropological and historical approaches to oral tradition, which is what Rabbi Gamedze's interview amounts to.

In Swaziland the designation of royalty has been restricted to a subset of the Dlamini clan closely related to the current king for between 150 and 200 years. There was one or more independent Gamedze chiefdom (= very small kingdom of perhaps 1000-2000 persons) prior to the Dlamini conquest, but no Gamedze chief has had royal status in Swaziland since the 1850s at the latest, and probably earlier (a couple of chiefdoms that were incorporated were permitted to hold independent "first fruits" rituals that were the mark of independent kingship; the Gamedze were not one of those). This situation was not caused by the British redrawing boundary lines -- the Gamedze chiefdoms are in the middle of what was the independent Swazi kingdom as the British found it.

When the rabbi says his grandfather was a king, it is possible that this is true in his maternal line. Children of royal daughters ("princesses") are counted as very junior princes or princesses, & allowed to wear a small number of royal loury feathers, though their own children are not. But it seems evident from Rabbi Gamedze's account that he is referring to his paternal grandfather who seems to have been a chief of a Gamedze chiefdom.

In Swaziland such a chief would be recognized as having high status, but would not be recognized as royalty. Chris Lowe (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)