Talk:Narcotics Anonymous/Archive 1

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Contents

Facts and History

How about some facts? - how many meetings in the world, how many countries with meetings, what is the service structure.

How about some history? - Jimmy K., the early days in LA and San Diego, the troubles with personalities before principles, etc.

Any NA Group that incorporates a religous prayer in it's meeting is, in fact, directly violating traditions.

Alexander King, in his book Mine Enemy Grows Older (1960) refers to attending the first NA meetings in New York City in the late 1940s. So were there seperate groups on different coasts?

NA as such wasn't founded until 1953. There were other similar groups in NYC and other places before this, though, and he probably was referring to one of those. This info is now in the history section. Sarah crane 13:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If he was talking about Narcotics Anonymous, he is in violation of traditions. "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films." If Alexander were to relapse or full out fall back into active addiction what kind of image would that show his readers about NA as a whole?

Narcotics Anonymous "has no opinion on outside issues," 3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Is it just me, or do these two statements contradict one another? They obviously have their own opinion about God...

That's not an "outside issue". The belief in a Higher Power is a requirement for working the 12 steps, although you don't need to call that power God, and many atheists have found recovery in NA. -anon
I think this is just a misunderstanding of what the 3rd step means when it refers to "we". In this context "we" is meant to mean the indivual addict working the step not the organization as a whole. The statement "as we understand him" is supposed to highlight the indivuals right to make up his own mind how they wish to conceptualize god. This statement is interpreted so liberally within the culture of Narcotics Anonymous that, in my experience, only a handful of members would insist that a belief in any sort of supernatural force is a requirment for working the 12 steps. - Atheist member of NA

Objectivity

How about a reality check? This article looks like it came straight out of a Narcotics Anonymous brochure. If no one else volunteers, I guess I'll get around to it eventually. Jessesamuel 18:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

It pretty much came right out of official NA literature. That said, it's basically accurate, although it's missing a lot of information (specifically controversies and history). -anon
P.S. More critical and historical info can be found at http://lakeportna.homestead.com/untitled2.html
And http://www.na-history.org/history_of_na_scott.html and http://www.na-history.org/history_of_na_scott.html

I've beefed this section up a lot. Sarah crane 13:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

While now more complete this article does not address the suitability or otherwise of NA for a person dealing with drug abuse; the broad based appeal or lack of and its effectiveness in adressing large scale addiction. It also makes no indication of the size and spread of the organisation and how it has adapted to cultures other than the judeo-christian one from which it originated. It is a largly internal view of the organisation.

  • It has nothing to do with any Jedeo-Christian values or cultures. It is a SPIRITUAL not religious program. That's why it's so accepted globally. An addict is an addict, no matter what culture you come from. Go check out a meeting and you will see for yourself. Men, women, gay, straight, black, white, old, young, catholic, jew, muslim, agnostic, atheist... drugs affect anyone. ANYONE. Who you are and or where you're from makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. The bottom line is, no religion can supercede the reward and feeling of one addict helping another. In fact, if you look at any spiritually based belief, you will see man helping fellow man is at the core. J-Dog 05:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It did actually come from AA, which came from the oxford group, which was christian. Also, a US judge has stated that the 12 steps ARE a religious exercise. I would personally add that there is very little difference between organised religion and organised spirituality (if any). I would be very interested to see how NA tanscends into different cultures. My understanding is that UK meetings are different from US ones, and we are two countries with a fair amount in common. To assume that ethinicity and culture would have no bearing on a persons ability to "get" the 12 steps would would be wrong. Indeed, project match showed that AA was most succesful in treating alcoholics of a certain class (white middle class males, if I remember correctly), so why should NA be any different?

Anyone with any experience within AA or NA can tell you the cultures of these two groups is VERY different. I can tell you here in South Carolina the average person who has some measure of success with the Narcotics Anonymous program is most definatley not a white middle class male. Hell a stroll through any NA convention can tell you that. - Atheist member of NA
To the individual two comments above... There is a HUGE difference between organised religion and organised spirituality. Religion teaches you what to believe in. The spiritual principles of NA and AA do not. They promote a belief in a God of one's own understanding, meaning that each person's higher power can varry from member to member. And none of them would be right or wrong. Some judge's opinion is absolutely meaningless because it's wrong. NA decided long ago that it would be a spiritual program and not a religious one, not some judge somewhere. And by the way, your understanding of NA may be different form mine. I am a member of NA, are you? There are indeed differences in format. This can very from meeting to meeting, not only state to state, or nation to nation as you pointed out. And lastly, as a member of NA I can tell you that ethnicity and culture have zero meaning in the rooms. An addict is an addict on every inch of this globe. My experience tells me that any person can recover, BECAUSE I'VE WITNESSED IT WITH MY OWN EYES. There's over 1,000 meetings a week in Iran, so what the hell does that tell you? These are facts that exist here. They are not subject to your opinion or debate. They are what they are, so let them speak for themselves from now on. J-Dog 16:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Statistically speaking, some cultures in America do have a harder time finding recovery in NA. Probably the biggest example is the Latino community. But there are sub-commities at the area, region, and world level that try to compensate. The area I attend ONLY speaks English and there is no translator. Which is common. One requirment in the bi-laws of the outreach commitee is to reach out the the Latino community. The basic text and other literature provided by the NA world service office are translated into Spanish and are available at the service office. I don't attend Spanish speaking meetings but they do have them and are marked on the meeting lists. I would guess that these meetings would stock Spanish translated NA literature more than English versions. Spanish keytags are also available.
The WORLD office is located in California. All literature is first written in English and then translated. One issue at the world conference was to lengthen the required approval time for recovery literature for 150 days to a year. The intent is to give other groups more time to make rough translated drafts to bring to their groups. This was brought up by a German speaking region. Blugrass Apalachian, North Carolina, Iran, South Africa, and Western Russia were voted in as new participants in 2006. There were 102 regions present. CUBA WAS THERE! They actually had a rep. There were 3 to 4 meetings in Cuba but all literature had been confiscated by the government and some members arrested. They are down to 2 members in Cuba. That's damn amazing. NA literature is printed in 32 languages.
I'm not sure exactly how AA does it cause I'm not a member of AA. But evidence shows that NA really has no cultural limits.
All this info can be found at NA.org. The info about Cuba was taken from the June minutes at naminnesota.org/area/tca/tca.htm-Eric H.

The Meetings -> Language section to me is somewhat POV and not an objective view of N.A. or addiction. Anyone care to tackle this and make it read more like an encyclopedic entry? fonetikli 05:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The comment that "It came from AA, which came from the Oxford Group, which was Christian" is quite irrelevant to the topic of whether or not NA is religious. A peanut comes from a combination of sun, soil and water. Yet one must admit, a crushed peanut tastes a whole lot better with jelly than a blend of its three primary predecessors.

Iran hosts one of the fastest growing NA communities in the world. Government and religious agencies there — which tend to be highly-critical of anything western-oriented — have welcomed NA and have not impeded its growth there at all. The government of China has been a bit more contentious. Then again, their cure for addiction is a bullet in the brain.

Zonal Forums

Not sure if anyone else wants to have a go at tidying this recently contributed section up? Also the "Worldwide Workshop" system is not discussed elsewhere in the article. Without going too overboard on the NA service structure detail, it may be worth expanding on what they are and how regularly they are held etc. thanks, --fonetikli 08:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

5th edn

"A 5th edition was released in 1991, correcting these problems,"

This is not correct, the 5th failed to address any more than a minority of the problems with the 4th, and was never approved by any genuine fellowship process. The 5th has caused a good deal of controversy, just like the 4th, 3rd & 1st. Tabby 04:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Symbol

Has anyone thought of an article explaining the significance of the NA symbol? How it differs from the AA symbol?

External Links

It appears that the non-affiliated website, "NA Way of Life, unofficial N.A. literature" found at http://www.nawol.org/ has been suspended. The explanation given there is simply the following: "Account for domain nawol.org has been suspended." (I don't believe that copying this explanatory text here violates any copyright, so I've included it.) I was unable to locate a new URL that points at the information described. However, I didn't think it was prudent to remove the sub-heading and link altogether without further discussion or explanation regarding the status of the domain in question. Bobthecorncob 11:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It now appears this external link is now working properly. Bobthecorncob 16:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:NaGroupLogo.gif

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BetacommandBot 00:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Inaccuracies in references to Cocaine Anonymous

Regarding the statement "Cocaine Anonymous seeks to treat cocaine addiction specifically (although it is also a program of abstinence from all drugs, including alcohol and marijuana.)[19]", this is untrue. Check the cited website at ca.org and see that the CA program never mentions cocaine without adding the corollary "...and all other mind-altering substances." In reality, people join and use CA to recover from a myriad of addictions. Cocaine is a common thread, but even at there are members who have never had a cocaine problem. What differentiates CA from NA primarily is the former's use of the AA Big Book as its basic text. CA has never published it's own set of step instructions or commentary; it simply uses the AA text, whereas NA has all of its own literature and actively discourages or even prohibits the use of AA literature. --Ksteveh 21:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

  • NA doesn't prohibit anything. It simply publishes it's own literature. It's not like there's the NA secret police that runs around and patrols the meetings making sure there's no AA literature being used. J-Dog 15:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Effectiveness

This article provides a nice history and description of NA. However, I did not see any reference to the effectiveness of the program. I understand that it is difficult to determine effectiveness in 12-step groups, but surely there must be clinical trials out there that have at least tried? Please do not respond with personal stories or other anectodotal information. We need peer-reviewed studies.Desoto10 (talk) 02:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Go to Google Scholar and type: "Narcotics Anonymous" Effectiveness.
feel free to use that tip for the rest of your life for anything you're interested in learning. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 04:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that valuable information. I have added what appears to be the most often cited reference for 12-step facilitation treatment for cocaine abuse. It has similar issues with the MATCH project over in AA entry.Desoto10 (talk) 04:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Na books.PNG

Image:Na books.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Nature of Addiction

This section contains this bit about "bottoms":

"Addicts often first enter N.A. after reaching a "bottom" in their life, a point at which life feels completely unmanageable, characterized by "unemployability, dereliction and destruction" and centered around the getting and using and finding ways and means to get more drugs. Every N.A. member reaches a different bottom, which can be wherever the addict chooses to stop using. In practice, it is drug use and the extreme consequences associated with its abuse that bring most addicts to their bottom."

Does anybody have any citations for this? Has a study been performed among NA newcomers to see if this statement is true? If not, then it should go.Desoto10 (talk) 05:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Yeah, it's documented. It's in every personal story in the NA Basic Text. J-Dog (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)