Talk:Naming the American Civil War/2005

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American Civil War vs. Civil War

Disambiguation of the name is usually appropriate and necessary in Wikipedia discussion of the American Civil War, due to Wikipedia's international audience. However, it needs to be clear in this article specifically that the popular name (as endorsed by NPS) is "the Civil War", not "the American Civil War." The vast majority of (A)CW discussion and study takes place within the United States, and Americans simply don't commonly include the word "American" in the name, similar to how Britons refer to the events of 1642-1651 as simply "the Civil War." --VT hawkeye 04:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Surely U.S. Civil war is far more accurate than American Civil War? Markb 09:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The use of the word "Southern partisans" is POV. I am a northerner, but still think that the term "Civil War" is inaccurate historically. Perhaps we can change it to something toned down? --RegBarc 16:44, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Hm, for the article to say that all Southerners accepted the outcome immediately after the war shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the South. I'm changing that right now -- "all Southerners" didn't necessarily accept the result in 1966, much less 1866. Perhaps the term "War of Southern Independence" fell into disuse because Southerners recognized they failed, but there's a huge gap between recognizing the result and accepting it. As for your other point, this isn't really the place to debate whether the CW fits into the generic category of civil wars; it's most commonly called the Civil War, and an article about naming the conflict needs to reflect facts on the ground. VT hawkeye 04:50, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Musick addition

Added it, forgot to log in, logged in, and added the notation for my credit. Sorry.... Ezratrumpet 04:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Shiloh

This site says that "Shiloh" was the Southern name for the battle, while "Pittsburg Landing" was the Northern name. That's the way I've always heard it. --JW1805 23:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The National Park Service refers to it as Shiloh and their algorithm names the battle using the term coined by the victor (which is why they say Manassas instead of Bull Run, somethng Wikipedia ought to fix one of these days). I also checked Grant's Memoirs and he says "Shiloh was the severest battle fought at the West during the war, ..." and it would be hard to dispute that as the Northern view. Since this is obviously in dispute, I will remove the line in question. "Pittsburg Landing" is seldom used by anyone anyway. Hal Jespersen 00:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I'll see if I can find any additional references. If we can verify it (one way or the other), we can put it back. --JW1805 01:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

more entries

Let's try to agree on limiting more entries to the War name section to those for we have some historical or literary references to cite. OK? I mean I could add U.S. War III (1812 and Mexico were I and II) and say "many people say that", but we need a higher standard for inclusion in an encyclopedia article. I have encountered no historical references to the Revolution as the [First] War of Secession. Hal Jespersen 23:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. --JW1805 (Talk) 05:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Copperheads

I removed the Copperheads sentence, but it was restored [1]. Just from reading the Copperheads article, it seems like it was more of a political party, or political movement, than a generic name for "Northerners who sympathized with the Southern cause". Any comments? --JW1805 (Talk) 06:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

  • I removed it again. Even if it were correct, it doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of this article. --JW1805 (Talk) 00:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

In fact, Copperhead was not a party, just a generic term. Check Goerge Templeton Strong's diaries, for instance, where he simply uses it as an epithet, the way one might use "traitor" or "radical." -- amherst5282

Copperheads were real enough--they were an important faction inside the Dem party--which they controlled in some states (Ohio, Indiana). Strong certainly disliked them, and they were a major Democratic faction in his New York City. Rjensen 06:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Civil War "incorrect"?

I'm not sure about this edit, adding the sentence under the "Civil War" heading: "Technically, the term is incorrect, as a civil war involves two factions vying for control of a government. This was not the case, as the Southern States sought to separate themselves from the Federal Government, not take control of it." I think that's a bit pedantic. I don't believe "civil war" has such a specific meaning that you can call its usage here "incorrect". The OED defines civil war as "such as occur among fellow-citizens or within the limits of one community." --JW1805 (Talk) 15:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, at that point, they weren't fellow citizens, and it wasn't exactly a community tiff either. I think it's worth pointing out historical mislabeling.
MSTCrow 18:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
From the Union point of view, which did not recognize the Confederacy, they were fellow citizens of the same country. This is actually explained in this article, see the "War Between the States" section. --JW1805 (Talk) 22:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Here is what Wikipedia says about the meaning of Civil War:

A civil war is a war in which the competing parties are segments of the same country or empire. Civil war is usually a high intensity stage in an unresolved political struggle for national control of state power. As in any war, the conflict may be over other matters such as religion, ethnicity, or distribution of wealth. Some civil wars are also categorized as revolutions when major societal restructuring is a possible outcome of the conflict. An insurgency, whether successful or not, is likely to be classified as a civil war by some historians if, and only if, organised armies fight conventional battles. Other historians state the criteria for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not).

Ultimately the distinction between a "civil war" and a "revolution" or other name is arbitrary, and determined by usage. The successful insurgency of the 1640s in England which led to the (temporary) overthrow of the monarchy became known as the English Civil War. The successful insurgency of the 1770s in British colonies in America, with organized armies fighting battles, came to be known as the American Revolution. In the United States, the term 'the civil war' almost always means the American Civil War, with other civil wars noted or inferred from context.

[emphasis added in second graf] So under this definition, the usage in this article is correct. Hal Jespersen 18:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but if you use the first definition, it's incorrect. To use one or the other is cherrypicking. I suggest placing both contentions in the article.
MSTCrow 12:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

It's all one definition, but I see nothing in the first paragraph of it that contradicts the second. Hal Jespersen 17:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


The first paragraph states that competing parties are segments of the same country or empire for national control of state. Not only did the Southern States consider themselves not to be segments of the same country, they were not attempting to gain national control of the state, ie the US Federal government, but seeking to remove themselves from its control, leaving it in power over other States who voluntarily ceded to its authority. Ergo, by the very definition placed into evidence as an authoritative source by the pro-Civil War naming convention group, the US Civil War was not, by definition, an actual civil war.
MSTCrow 10:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

At the time neither USA nor CSA considered this a civil war. To the USA it was a rebellion and to the CSA a war for independence. HOWEVER< outside observers unanimously called it a civil war. It was by far the largest such in the 19th century and it set the norm for deciding what was or was not a civil war. By 1890 all American scholars agreed it was a civil war. AS for the dictionaries, they tell us how people use words. The dictionary makers are historians of words, but not of events. Rjensen 14:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

In 1863, an important guy in the USA used the term: see Gettysburg Address. Hal Jespersen 15:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
If historians use different meanings for words than are in the dictionary, they you end up with a complete collapse in meaning of historian's work, and end up with a giant null, that can be conviently interpeted in any way desirable. Simply because people call, or called, the war the Civil War doesn't necessarily make it true, anymore than people used to think that everything was coimprised of four elements made that true. The proper course of action to take in Wikipedia, which is related to a dictionary, I might add, is to make technical distinctions on the wording and meanings of events in order to better present an accurate picture of said events. Also, please make correct usage of indentation in talk replies.
MSTCrow 17:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • This whole article is about how different people called the conflict by different names. To pronounce in the article that Civil War is incorrect based on some narrow definition of the term is just ridiculous. --JW1805 (Talk) 17:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


The term you offered, in its entirety, defeated your own claims. Either the accepted definition of the term is too narrow for your liking, and didn't happen to include your definition, meaning your definition is therefore invalid, or it was broad enough to include both yours and my definition, and both are worthy of inclusion in the article. You cannot have it both ways. I did offer to include both definitions in the article in the spirit of compromise, but you've been unrelenting. Need I remind you that (at least in spirit) Wikipedia is an ecyclopedia of facts, not of cherry-picked opinion? If you cannot accept this, then I'll be forced to start going through the Wikipedia dispute resolution process.
MSTCrow 23:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
For anyone to say the term "civil war" is "incorrect" means that all historians, dictionaries, encyclopedias, newspapers, magazines, governments and textbooks are all wrong, which is very odd indeed. They all use "civil war" as the preferrred term. Does Wikipedia have some secret information that they are all wrong? Of course not. We just have one user who is pretty confused on the matter and should do a little more reading before announcing the rest of the world is mistaken. Rjensen 23:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


I've referred this issue to the Wikipedia RFC page.
Rjensen, if you look at the Wikipedia cited by Hal of the meaning of "Civil War," you'll see that you may be confused. If you're going to jump into a talk discussion, please read fully and completely all previous posts. Otherwise, it's just trolling. (Also, some history books, such as PIG's Guide to American History, do devote text to the "Civil War" misnomer. Strawman arguments are against Wikipedia policy.)
MSTCrow 20:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way I have read the debate here and consider it amazingly stupid. No serious expert disputes the Civil War term; every dictionary and encyclopedia has it. Is there a serious history book that takes up the point: I challenge that. Name the book and pages please. Rjensen 20:31, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm arriving at this discussion from RfC, and having read the above debate I have only two thoughts to weigh in. Firstly, the name of the article, per Wikipedia:Naming conventions, should be the common name for the conflict; this is pretty clearly "Civil War". Secondly, it's quite obvious that there exists some substantial debate over naming. Outside of this discussion I (a Northener) have heard several different names for the Civil War, most intended to lay the blame on a particular party, including "The War of Northern Aggression", "The War of Southern Rebellion", and "Lincoln's War". None of these are competitors for the most common name, but the fact that there exists such a debate is a very important and encyclopedic point, and is certainly worth detailing in the article (or even forking into another article and summarizing in this one if it's long enough). Declaring it to be a misnomer or not would be POV and also original research; making a declaration one way or another on a contentious topic is not the job of wikipedia. siafu 20:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


saifu, thank you for your input. I would like to take the opportunity to point out that the naming of the article is not in dispute, only that the technical information regarding the (mis)naming of the Civil War be included under the first sub-entry.
MSTCrow 00:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

To a non-American, this whole argument seems ridiculous and partisan. To the rest of the English speaking world, this conlict is the American Civil War. Within the US, I would expect "Civil War", much in the same way that to us Brits, Civil War means the English Civil War of the 17th Century. What is important is not the name of the conflict, but its causes, events and outcomes. The only reason I can see for all this controversy is the partisan views of one side or another with regard to their geography or leanings. Anyone coming to Wikipedia nad looking for info on the ACW will type that in for the search. Just because you don't like the name is no reason to change it. Or maybe we should change the names of all wars to something more literal or partisan. How about "The War against totalitarian evil" or "The Democratic Intervention War" for WW2? Or maybe we should change the name of the War of the Roses as there were no flowers involved. Don't you guys see how ridiculous this debate is. By all means note in the main ACW article that the war had different names at the time and later, but let's get serious. [Mbalmer]

Your concern is, of course, the reason we moved this topic into its own subarticle. The purpose of this article is to describe the various names that have been used widely since the war, an interesting situation because few wars in history have so many disagreements over the name. Unfortunately, some of the editors believe that the purpose of the article is to argue for the correct name of the war, rather than simply to document what names have been used widely. Yes, certainly, the overwhelming majority of people in the world and the United States refer to this conflict as the [American or U.S.] Civil War, which is why the main Wikipedia article on the subject has the name that it does. Hal Jespersen 21:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I see your point regarding the separation of this issue from the main ACW article. It remains amusing to see the desire that authors have to rewrite history in this field to run into line with their own views. (Professional historians as well as Wiki contributors.) I guess you must have a constant battle against this as an ACW editor. Good luck and keep up the good work! [Mbalmer]

Adjective or no adjective

There should be an adjective to differentiate this civil war from other civil wars. This is a separate issue from what the adjective should be. Dropping the adjective to avoid picking an adjective is not the best solution.--Gbleem 19:05, 16 December 2005 (UTC) Or maybe I'm wrong. Civil War (United States of America) might work. --Gbleem 19:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

American vs. United States

American is a common adjective form meaning from or of the United States. While it probably wasn't thought out when first used it could be thought of as an abreviation of United State of American. I'm a "United States of American," doesn't role off my tongue but American is vague. I'm not sure we can fix the U.S. vs. American thing however I think there is a trend to use U.S. as an adjective and American as a noun. I am an American. The U.S. Military. The U.S. government. I think the title of the film "An American President" suggests an exception for using American to describe people. How do I explain American car or American music? Maybe we americans don't know who we are. I suppose American works well for cultural things that don't stop at the boarder. In the case of the Civil War I lean towards United States as an adjective because of the political nature and that it involved the relationship among the states. United States of America is probably better since United States is an abreviation of the country name. If one thinks there should be an adjective, and I do but that is a separate issue, then I support "United States of America Civil War". --Gbleem 19:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Or maybe I'm wrong. Civil War (United States of America) might work. --Gbleem 19:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. "American" is an adjective (American Revolution, American Football). "U.S." is used for proper nouns (U.S. Government, U.S. Army). Jrkarp 22:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

RfC

Actually I believe Wikipedia convention would be Civil War (United States) or Civil War of the United States. The country's full name seldom appears in article titles. American Civil War is inappropriate because other countries in the hemisphere have also had civil wars. I'm not completely happy with the policy of avoiding American as a national adjective. Yet since the country's name is hard to distinguish from two continents we sometimes get unwieldy titles. Add the common names for the war in the first line. Best wishes. Durova 19:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Hm...thinking about this a bit more, the naming issue might deserve a short section of its own. Part of the issue revolves around whether the Confederacy was actually a separate country. This could give a good introduction to points of view regarding the war. Durova 19:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I sympathize with how it is annoying how the United States has coopted the term "America," but I really don't see the potential for confusion here. If it were the "North American" or "South American Civil War", then I can see how this vagueness would be a problem. But, in practical terms and in English, people rarely use "American" by itself to refer to other countries besides the United States. If it was the Civil War of the AmericaS, there would be a problem. However, because the alternative names you propose have very little documented use in comparison to this name, I think it would only create problems to change the title, especially considering how people use search engines to find these articles. However, there is an easy solution. If you can find a documented source that makes this criticism of the most frequently used title of the war, the criticism could easily be added to this article which critiques the various names for the war. Tfine80 19:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Regarding Wikipedia convention on the name of the conflict itself, the contents of List of civil wars indicate that the use of "National-adjective Civil War" is standard. Whether "American" is the proper national adjective for the United States is the subject of its own article. VT hawkeye 16:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Why are we discussing what the name of the war should be? I, and others, agree that the name isn't accurate, and could be improved, but that doesn't matter. We can't change the name people use for this war. "Fixing" the name is prohibited as original research. --A D Monroe III 18:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Although I can't call myself a fan of this convention, it's consistent with the rest of Wikipedia to make "American civil war" a redirect (until or unless some article examines civil wars of North and South America as a group, in which case that would lead to a disambiguation page). Depending on what region one comes from, the war itself has different names and the battles follow different naming patterns (Manassas/Bull Run). An early section in this article would be an excellent place to discuss those matters. Let the alternate names for the war redirect to the main article. Durova 03:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"American Civil War" -- notice "civil war" is capitalized as a title -- is the common label. The words are in essence a thing in themselves. This is very different than other situations where we have to create our own titles to examine a subject -- for example "American charcoal drawing" versus "Charcoal drawing in the United States". But, if you would like it, American civil wars and Civil wars in the Americas can be a redirect to your proposed article Civil wars in North and South America. Tfine80 06:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate your effort to explain the situation. I am already well acquainted with it. I hold a university degree in history. My point is that Wikipedia publishes for a worldwide audience. Its somewhat idiosyncratic title system is consistent. The editors of this article requested comments. Now you have mine. Best wishes. Durova 16:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

While it's certainly not the only civil war that's taken place in America, "American Civil War" is a widely accepted title among historians, largely because this war was so large in scope and of significant duration. I would stick with "American Civil War" - for clarity, a subtitle might read, "War of the Rebellion, 1861-1865", the title given the war by the United States Army in publishing the Official Records. I think that the discussion regarding the title is healthy, illuminating, and quite Wiki-ish. Best regards. Ezratrumpet 19:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment ...Wikipedia publishes for a worldwide audience... point well taken. The name for the nationality of someone from the United States the world over is the variation of American in that country's language, i.e. Amerikaner in German, Americain in French, etc. Calling someone an American and meaning a U.S. citizen is an accepted practice, thus calling it the American Civil War should also follow and not be a big deal. Redirects at Civil War (United States) and Civil War of the United States (and probably a whole host of others) seem superfluous, but probably necessary.
Yikes! I thought this was on the actual article, that's what I get for leaping before I look... --Easter Monkey 03:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)