Talk:Muslim Agricultural Revolution

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islam
Islam Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Islam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
A fact from Muslim Agricultural Revolution appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 25 October 2007.
Wikipedia


Contents

[edit] misnamed ?

this article seems misnamed or else it needs to be split up. Only part of the article is a about agriculture. The rest is on other, but still important, Muslim advances. Hmains 04:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Why is it Capitalized? I've removed a few of the distracting links, bluebirding every third noun. --Wetman 07:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I suggest Muslim technology or something the like. Also, its very enthuſiaſm begs the queſtion: whatever became of it?
--
Leandro GFC Dutra 11:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
"Muslim Agricultural Revolution" is a term picked from a pdf file written by a partisan source. This is embarrassing. Arrow740 (talk) 00:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] splitting this article

how about taking the industry and technology sections out of this article and placing them in a new article to be named Industry and Technology in the Islamic Golden Age, leaving this article just for agriculture?. Hmains (talk) 06:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This article is full of totally unsubstaniated claims, making Muslism out to be the founders of modern agriculture and science. It is quite ludicrous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.38.29 (talk) 15:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The article isn't that bad, but it does need work. It is fairly diffuse; many things are largely irrelevant to agricultural systems (e.g. References to Islamic cookbooks). The proto-capitalistic system is interesting, but this article does give one the impression the capitalism as we know it today was largely influenced by Islamic systems, when in fact it is more heavily rooted in the mercantile system used in imperialist Europe and the guilds of Europe. I think it is a portion worth noting as it does relate to the way goods were transferred, but the article should do a better job of not giving undue weight to it. I don't think the entire article is unsubstantiated; after all, the majority of it is sourced. -Rosywounds (talk) 22:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Pax Islamica"

Who is the source for this POV? There was no actual peace. Arrow740 (talk) 00:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

John M. Hobson (2004), The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation, pp. 29–30, Cambridge University Press.Bless sins (talk) 21:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Failed verification. Google books says the phrase does not occur the book. Arrow740 (talk) 21:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, try: Subhi Y. Labib (1969), "Capitalism in Medieval Islam", The Journal of Economic History 29 (1), pp. 79–96.
To be precise it's in first sentence of the third paragraph on page 80. The quote starts "In the early Middle ages as Pax Islamica was the foundation of an economic golden age..."
Check it out.Bless sins (talk) 21:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't so much a period of no war as a period when war didn't impact the lives of the average person all that much. Yes, there was warfare, but there wasn't the same general destruction of territories that disrupted Medieval Europe, Classical Greece, and so forth. Compare to "Pax Romana" or "Pax Britania," two periods of pretty much constant low-level warfare along the borders of the respective empires. --Raulpascal (talk) 15:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nothing

Arrow740 directed me here.[1] Yet there is no ongoing discussion about the article "Islamic Golden Age".Bless sins (talk) 10:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting off maritime discoveries and trade

I was looking for a page on the history, routes, economics, etc, of (mainly) Muslim sea trade centered in the Indian Ocean. My impression was that Indian Ocean trade involved very large amounts of traffic and long distances. And that it had been vigorous since ancient times, before Islam, even if it only really boomed later and mainly under Muslim traders. It seemed like a topic worthy of its own page, but instead I found several pages on seemingly different topics containing sections or subsections on it. This page, for example, has a decent start under the "Age of discovery" section, but it struck me as odd to find it on a page about agriculture (I understand the connection between long-distance trade and agricultural revolution, but it still seems odd). There's another short subsection over at Islamic Golden Age#Economy. Wouldn't it be nice to have a page specifically on Muslim maritime history, especially in the Indian Ocean and its seas, and perhaps including pre-Islam history as well as non-Muslim penetrations (the Chinese, the Europeans in later times)? Maybe if I find the time I'll try to do it, starting with spinning off the content here and adding what I can. I'm not quite sure what such a page should be called -- "Maritime history of the Indian Ocean"? Or maybe a more limited "History of Muslim shipping in the Indian Ocean"? Ack.. Thoughts? Pfly (talk) 00:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. I originally moved the section here from the Islamic Golden Age article to show the important role played by explorers and sailors during the Muslim Agricultural Revolution. But now that you mention it, it would be better to create a seperate page on Muslim voyages and explorations. Jagged 85 (talk) 08:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Arrow704 has claimed that certain sources in the article are unreliable, so I am adding a section here to discuss this matter. Firstly, the Journal of the International Society for the History of Islamic Medicine is an internationally recognized academic health science journal,[2] so there is no question regarding its reliability. As for the MacTutor archive, it is an award-winning mathematics archive written by recognized mathematics professors. However, I do agree with you on a few of the other online sources, which I've now removed from the article, along with some previously unreferenced bits. Jagged 85 (talk) 12:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

See [3]. The International Society seems to be a partisan organization without any mainstream peer-review or reputable publisher. Further the MacTutor archive is a self-published website publisher by mathematicians, not historians. Arrow740 (talk) 01:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything for the website Arrow provided that would suggest that the journal is unreliable. MacTutor is hosted by a university is it not?Bless sins (talk) 01:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] massive distortion

"In 1551, after the decline of the golden age, the Egyptian engineer Taqi al-Din invented the first practical steam turbine as a prime mover for rotating a spit. This was the first time steam power was used to operate a practical machine or appliance. A similar steam turbine later appeared in Europe a century later, which eventually led to the steam engine and Industrial Revolution in 18th century Europe."

This section has been altered becuase it is extremely misleading. First thing the supposed steam turbine that Tarqi al-Din invented is not a real steam turbine by any modern definition. The sentence then goes on to say it was the first steam powered device used for a machine, even thoiugh Heron had developed the Aeolipile and used steam to open doors to a religious temple. Another major falw here is there is no evidence the device was built or used, which is what this section implies that it was used widely, which it clearly wasn't. Then it says that something similar appeared in europe and that led to the steam engine. Well the first steam engine was heron's device but neither heron's or tariq devices led to the steam enigine since the devices could not concentrate steam in any efficient was and neither could perform indusdtrial task. al Din invented a machine that essentially rotated food on a stick, there is no industrial application in that, its just a kabaab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.181.171 (talk) 09:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crops

Two issues with the crop lists mentioned in this article:

First, I noticed the term "eggplant" is used in the sections "Agricultural Innovations" and "Crops," and "aubergine" in the fourth bullet of “Advanced Agricultural Systems” and in “Economic and Social Reforms.” That should probably be edited for consistency.

Second, how about one list, probably at the end of the article, of crops that were either introduced or made more widespread by this Agricultural Revolution?

Sorry to bring these points up and not do the edits myself, but I'm at work and currently unable to do so. --Raulpascal (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting, again

I really like this article; it is a great first point of contact for good sources on the economy of the Islamic world. However, I do think it should be split into Agriculture in the Islamic Golden Age and Industry in the Islamic Golden Age. There is enough to say about both sides and it will be easy to cross-reference one article from the other. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)